Some ideas for VP and/or modmods

[Recursive]

Azum4roll, the fighter planes that don't need strategic resources would count towards the supply cap.

Recursive, this looks really goo! Will there be any exceptions to it? I mean, I don't think it's realistic for the AI to be angry at you for proposing or voting for/against certain things, like a civ voting against being sanctioned or decolonized, or proposing a repeal of sanctions against it etc.? And will their reaction correlate to the preview we get when selecting which resolution to propose (who would like it and who wouldn't) and/or will we get any new tools for predicting in advance how much will an AI (dis)like our WC behaviour?

Much like warmongering is really a penalty against "war success", this is a penalty against "world congress success" (against them).

If North Korea had enough sway in the UN to repeal international sanctions against them, would you expect the rest of the world to sit quietly and nod in understanding?

The like/dislike modifier is based on the like/dislike preview. You will know whether they like it or not in advance, although the modifier will range from 15 to 45 depending on how much they like it or not (34% more for diplomat civs).

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Fair enough, I'm convinced

 

[azum4roll]

Is the "everyone being grateful at you proposing world religion, as long as it's not yours" bug fixed?

 

[LifeOfBrian]

For the missionary AI spam when you're a founder as well, could we get a system that once you've founded a religion, that any missionary/GP that wants to enter your lands cannot do so unless you're giving open borders or the AI declares war on you (kind of like now with military units). That way religions could still be spread to non-founders without their consent, but to founders only through their consent (via open borders) and through passive spread/pressure.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

I'd propose changing the rebel system so that it doesn't appear the first turn of you having lower happiness, but giving you a grace period of a few turns, for example 3 turns. I'll sometimes be hovering around 45% happiness and then I'll use an inquisitor on my capital, which brings my happiness below the threshold and then immediately rebel barbarians appear. If we have a grace period for cities flipping, we ought to have a grace period (shorter) for rebels appearing.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

I'd propose changing four things related to warfare:
- when you're at war with an AI and you liberate a city, currently all your enemy's units in the city's territory get expelled, even if the liberated city is your ally (for example your ally AII or a city state), which means the defeated civ is at a disadvantage that seems unrealistic (why would they get automatically magically transported away from their enemies, giving them breathing space?),
- when you conquer a city and liberate it, the unit with which you took the city loses all its movement points and gets transported to a random tile, often closer to the enemy's borders, leaving them to be destroyed the same turn - it'd be better if your units were returned to the same tile from which they launched the winning attack on the city
- when you conquer a city with a mounted melee unit/unit that can attack twice (like kris swordsmen), that unit should not lose all it movement points if you decided to liberate the city, but it should keep the remaining,
- when your open borders agreement ends and your troops magically get transported away, they should be transported to the closest friendly/neutral/owned territory where there's at least 6 tiles between that tile and an enemy unit - it's very bothersome when your troops get transported away to your enemy's lands only to get destroyed immediately before you have a chance to do anything with them

 

[LifeOfBrian]

A few ideas to add:
- currently if you use a citadel to take a tile or two next to a city, then a while later conquer the city, then liberate it (or have it re-captured), the city will reclaim those tiles, meaning you basically wasted a citadel. That happened to me twice in my current game, once when I decided to liberate a city and once when I took a Swedish city, which was recaptured a few turns later, making it harder for me to keep attacking it. I don't see much point in this nerf of citadels, so I'd propose changing it so that the citadel-ed tiles remain with the citadel regardless of what happens with the city

- conscripted units should appear with all movement points available, to avoid having the appear close to the enemy, leaving them to their mercy

- if my idea of having faster city healing when there are no nearby enemy units is too process-power-heavy, we could try a solution that if you are at peace with all civs, the healing rate vastly increases. It's not perfect, but still much better than the current system.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Two things:
God of the Sun (giving 3 faith to granaries) is too strong, it's the single best pantheon for founding if you don't have other faith bonuses/monopoly, there's no other pantheon that can consistently give you so much faith so quickly. I'd recommend reducing faith to two, removing gold and replacing it with 2 or 3 golden age points.

Lebensraum tenet, the one that gives double citadel radius, is completely bonkers. In my last game I was up against a runaway tradition Poland with 6 cities, I was Authority Austria. After vassalizing Sweden and Zulus and after buying up 4-5 great generals, I conquered a city state next to Poland (they were on the other side of the map), then proceeded to use 10-11 great generals with Lebensraum to take away almost all land tiles away from Poland, leaving them basically without any land tiles to work, so their yields plummeted and they would probably wither away had I not used my new tiles surrounding them to position my armies there, then launch an attack on them wiping them out in a matter of turns. I can post pictures if needed, but I can consistently abuse Lebensraum against AIs, whereas I never see the AI use a chain of Lebensraum great generals against their opponents. So I'd recommend changing this tenet to something else or at least teaching the AI to abuse it, if possible.

 

[youngsteve]

Two things:

Lebensraum tenet, the one that gives double citadel radius, is completely bonkers. In my last game I was up against a runaway tradition Poland with 6 cities, I was Authority Austria. After vassalizing Sweden and Zulus and after buying up 4-5 great generals, I conquered a city state next to Poland (they were on the other side of the map), then proceeded to use 10-11 great generals with Lebensraum to take away almost all land tiles away from Poland, leaving them basically without any land tiles to work, so their yields plummeted and they would probably wither away had I not used my new tiles surrounding them to position my armies there, then launch an attack on them wiping them out in a matter of turns. I can post pictures if needed, but I can consistently abuse Lebensraum against AIs, whereas I never see the AI use a chain of Lebensraum great generals against their opponents. So I'd recommend changing this tenet to something else or at least teaching the AI to abuse it, if possible.

I personally find the use of Citadels bonkers & gamey full stop. Ignoring the fact that stealing someones lands should be a CB to declare war on them without repurcussions to diplomacy & upset everyone, why would being around one be such an advantage/disadvantage, depending which side your on. You don't get crazy bonuses/loses by being around a city, which surely would be the more powerful of the two. How in anyones world can units receive damage by standing next to their city just because a citadel has been used. The use of them is a real advantage to warlike civs either played by AI/Human, as they are more likely to obtain a constant stream of GG. I would rather turn them off as are unbalanced.

 

[Stalker0]

Two things:
God of the Sun (giving 3 faith to granaries) is too strong, it's the single best pantheon for founding if you don't have other faith bonuses/monopoly, there's no other pantheon that can consistently give you so much faith so quickly. I'd recommend reducing faith to two, removing gold and replacing it with 2 or 3 golden age points.

Lebensraum tenet, the one that gives double citadel radius, is completely bonkers. In my last game I was up against a runaway tradition Poland with 6 cities, I was Authority Austria. After vassalizing Sweden and Zulus and after buying up 4-5 great generals, I conquered a city state next to Poland (they were on the other side of the map), then proceeded to use 10-11 great generals with Lebensraum to take away almost all land tiles away from Poland, leaving them basically without any land tiles to work, so their yields plummeted and they would probably wither away had I not used my new tiles surrounding them to position my armies there, then launch an attack on them wiping them out in a matter of turns. I can post pictures if needed, but I can consistently abuse Lebensraum against AIs, whereas I never see the AI use a chain of Lebensraum great generals against their opponents. So I'd recommend changing this tenet to something else or at least teaching the AI to abuse it, if possible.

I wrote a long account of Sun on the pantheon thread back in the day but the jist is this:

1) If you go Granary, Monument, Shrine....then your faith is honestly not that great compared to other pantheons.
2) If you go Granary, Shrine, Monument.... then your culture is absolute garbage, so you are paying for that faith with a very slow policy pace.

So in my experience, Sun is great at what it does, but it has a solid cost.


As for Lebensraum, is it OP....probably. Is it literally the most fun thing you can do in all of VP? Yes....yes it is

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Stalker, in your opinion, what are some pantheons that can reliably get you a religion that don't make your culture temporarily suffer? I think that happens with most pantheons, without those having the strong faith that god of the sun has. I mean, I take into account that my culture will temporarily suffer if I want to get a religion (without a faith monopoly or some other faith bonus), with the rare niche exceptions such as god of the sky and stars (very rare).

Edit: And yes, that's perhaps my favourite thing to do, use 10 megaGGs in a row against an AI who's just complaining every time I do it, without doing anything about it, leaving him with an empire the size of San Marino.

 

[Stalker0]

Stalker, in your opinion, what are some pantheons that can reliably get you a religion that don't make your culture temporarily suffer?

Wisdom for Tradition Starts, Commerce for Progress starts, Sea on a good Water Map, Beauty off of Stonehenge, Expanse is always good, take your pick


The key is this. Many pantheons require a shrine first opener (at least in your satelite cities) to found, so culture is slowed a bit. Sun requires 2 buildings (granary and shrine) to found....so culture is REALLY slow. I am a fan of Sun, its a fun pantheon to grow like crazy, but its not the end all be all of pantheons.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Thnx for the reply. I'm used to playing against the likes of Maya, Poland and other AIs that found quickly, so I've become used to having to rush faith at the expense of culture, because I haven't been able to found with Commerce (takes too much time and too many workers to connect the cities), Beauty, Expanse or Wisdom, with the exception of a good start with sea resources. Meanwhile, I'm quite used to scrounging every gold piece I have to invest in granaries, shrines and then monuments in my satellite cities, so it usually doesn't affect my culture that much, especially since you gain 2gpt for each granary which makes it easier to invest heavily. But I think I know what you mean with it not being the "ultimate" pantheon.

 

[Stalker0]

Thnx for the reply. I'm used to playing against the likes of Maya, Poland and other AIs that found quickly, so I've become used to having to rush faith at the expense of culture, because I haven't been able to found with Commerce (takes too much time and too many workers to connect the cities), Beauty, Expanse or Wisdom, with the exception of a good start with sea resources.

Here are a few quick tips, I have founded on deity with these strats. I pretty much go shrine first in all satellites with these pantheons, then monument after that.

1) Commerce: Commerce is a good pantheon for trade focused civs (Morocco, Portugal, Ottomans), as you want your TR unit out early anyway. I generally go:

Monument
Shrine
Warrior
Settler
Granary
Trade Route (to my 2nd city)

Second city is built very close to the first (often 4 hexes). First worker from Progress begins the road building and then I get my Trade Route unit. The combination of all of that gives you a very strong faith push early, and the extra science from Progress 3 and your connection will help give you momentum. With rushing shrines in my satellite cities, I have good success with founds...it might be one of the last founds but its still a found. Of course if I think I can snag Petra all the better, but I don't always need Petra to make this work.

2) Beauty: I generally do this off a Stonehenge rush with Tradition play. Get Stonehenge and Beauty and combined with Tradition 2 you already have a very strong faith start.

3) Expanse: Generally good for starts with natural culture that helps boost your border growth. The key is fast expansion, getting lots of cities early. Often works well with Authority play, once you have Imperium you will get an immediate border growth when you found a city, so you get a double whammy of production from Tribute and from your pantheon, allowing you to build shrines very rapidly.

4) Wisdom: Often a good default on Tradition play since I'm working the specialist anyway. Wisdom is one of those that on paper doesn't look that great for founding but I've been pretty consistent with it playing Tradition (and relying on Tradition 2's faith bonus a bit).

5) The trick with Sea is how quickly you can get the fishing boats online. As I'm expanding I will build fishing boats in the capital, as well as buy them when I get my satelitte. This often means that every city is instantly producing 3 faith (1 base, +2 for 2 sea resources) the moment its founded. Faith early is much stronger than faith late, so even though Sea is not the most faith heavy pantheon, the speed at which you can generate it is why it works.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

I've been trying lately to play without founding a religion, focusing on eventually capturing a holy city. Is there any specific reason for the faith-reset-to-0 function applies to late-era captures of holy cities in the same way as a capture in the classical era? Some possible changes:
- change from faith-reset-to-0 to "faith reduced to 750, scaling with era",
- leaving the reset to 0, but discarding this once you hit the industrial era together with setting a minimum amount of faith needed to buy a great prophet from industrial era onward,
- don't have a reset, but change the minimum amount of faith needed to buy a great prophet for each era (maybe 1500 faith, scaling with era?)

It's extremely frustrating finally capturing a holy city/capital late in the game and losing all the faith you've accumulated up to that point and I'm not sure I see the reason why you should lose all the faith instead of perhaps just some.

 

[pineappledan]

@amateurgamer88 was at one point working on adding 2 more ideologies and victory conditions to the late game, and I really was looking forward to that. Hopefully that gets off the ground at some point.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Another thought on how to setup faster healing by your cities, if there are no enemy units present within your borders, all your cities heal faster. As far as I understand, the game already checks for "enemies" within your borders (that's how you get the notification at the start of your turn). That would ensure your cities could still heal faster even if you were engaged in a proxy/distance war with the enemy not attacking. A more simple solution would be that the cities heal faster if you are at peace with everyone.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Terracota army is in my opinion too strong, i.e. it gives too much culture per kill, so I'd nerf it to 10 culture, scaling with era, but I'd instead supplement this with some other yield per kill, for example either 10 tourism per kill or 10 food in capital per kill, scaling with era. AFAIK, no other mechanic in the game gives tourism/food per killed enemy unit, so that would be unique, but not too strong.

Unrelated thing: I'd absolutely love if we could give Industry a more clear niche by making it more appealing to those going for a cultural victory (Rationalism is great for SV, Imperialism for domination victory), so I'd give the opener or one of the first two policies the ability to get golden age points for every unit purchase or investment, and I'd have each Industry policy increase the golden age length).

Another unrelated thing: I'm miffed that you can advance multiple eras without researching the whole old era's technologies, it seems counterintuitive and better for humans who can beeline as opposed to the AI who, I suppose, is more geared towards researching the whole era. I don't like how you can get to the Medieval era before researching all of Ancient era's technologies, and the same problem is present throughout the game. So I'd make a change that you can't advance two eras ahead, so for example you couldn't get into the Medieval era without having researched all of ancient era technologies.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

Terracota army is in my opinion too strong, i.e. it gives too much culture per kill, so I'd nerf it to 10 culture, scaling with era, but I'd instead supplement this with some other yield per kill, for example either 10 tourism per kill or 10 food in capital per kill, scaling with era. AFAIK, no other mechanic in the game gives tourism/food per killed enemy unit, so that would be unique, but not too strong.

Terracotta has been adjusted a couple times now, and normally I'd be opposed to another nerf, but I think you've found the answer with the tourism per kill addition. I'm all for it (I think Brazilian Pracinha utilizes that in 3/4 UC mod, but no biggie).

Unrelated thing: I'd absolutely love if we could give Industry a more clear niche by making it more appealing to those going for a cultural victory (Rationalism is great for SV, Imperialism for domination victory), so I'd give the opener or one of the first two policies the ability to get golden age points for every unit purchase or investment, and I'd have each Industry policy increase the golden age length).

I agree, though I imagine Gazebo would be hard pressed to rework the tree at this point. The finisher is also Broadway (and GM faith purchase ability); with New York being the supposed 'cultural capital of the world'. The GAP addition is adequate, but you'd probably want some tourism incorporated into the tree somehow as well.

Now obviously there's no crazy restrictions on policy selection -- I'm coincidentally just finishing a Babylon game where I successfully went the unorthodox route of Authority/Fealty/Rationalism/Order -- and we want variance to be viable, but optimally you have the trees line up like:

• (CV) Tradition --> Artistry --> Industry
  
• (SV) Progress --> Statecraft --> Rationalism
• (DomV) Authority --> Fealty --> Imperialism

Diplo victory remains a wildcard that can be accomplished as long as you've utilized Statecraft advantages. Personally, I don't tack on much extra content to base VP, but in the long run I think the additions of Religious + Economic victory would be really great for VP.

 

[pineappledan]

Diplo victory remains a wildcard that can be accomplished as long as you've utilized Statecraft advantages. Personally, I don't tack on much extra content to base VP, but in the long run I think the additions of Religious + Economic victory would be really great for VP.

Agreed, I think the addition of an Economic and a Religious Victory would solve any issues with Industry and Fealty. The other 4 medieval/industrial policy trees feel more targeted towards victory conditions, leaving Industry and Fealty feeling strong, but unfocused in a way.
Statecraft/diploV
Fealty/ReligiousV
Artistry/CultureV
Industry/EconomicV
Imperialism/DomV
Rationalism/ScienceV
I would definitely play with a more ideologies/and victories mod