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Some lore questions!

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by exolead, Jul 31, 2011.

  1. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    There is a very official cannon on things that happened before the Age of Rebirth, but Kael likes to avoid making too much official that depends on actions players take during the game. I don't recall any indication that either the timeline where Decius fled to Malakim or the one where he fled to the Calabim is more official than the other option. Those events that would end up happening either way (such as Talia Gossam committing adultery with Decius and then killing herself, or Decius retrieving the Netherblade and bringing it to the final confrontation with Auric Ascended) do however remain canonical.
     
  2. ClasuSiosa

    ClasuSiosa Thespian of the Sword

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    How can the seraphim be Bhall's angels? In Bridget's pedis it say that Bhall destroyed all of the defiant (holy) angels just before she threw Bridget into the auroaborialis.

    I don't remember if this was a mod mod but there was a pedia that told of a human-angel that faced her brother(a mane) and transformed into a seraph. Does this mean not all seraphim are true angels?
     
  3. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I remember that when Brigit's pedia entry was first released I complained about that, because I knew that Kael had previously mentioned that Bhall had other angels who remained holy when she fell, and that most of these now serve Lugus. On my first read that seemed incompatible.

    Then I read it again, and found that this was not necessarily a contradiction. It never actually says that the 440 angels that fought behind Brigit were all the angels of Bhall that remained holy, but rather that they were the only ones that "remained loyal to her holy dominion." I thus must assume that there were other angels of Bhall who refused to fall, but who fled in cowardice rather than stand with Brigit against the corruption that was consuming their once holy precept. These angels maintained their good alignment by betraying their loyalty to the flames of passion, most choosing instead to embrace the light of truth.


    Also, in general the "death" of an angel is not annihilation but injury severe enough to send the angel's spirit immediately back to his god's vault and require a very long period of recuperation before it regains the strength to manifest itself in the world again. Kael has said that the only way an angel can truly die is if his god refuses to accept his spirit home. Bhall would certainly refuse this sanctuary to the angels she herself tried to destroy, and had destroyed her own vault by her fall anyway, but it is possible that another god would intervene to give them a home just as they would have perished. I just now noticed that it Brigit's pedia entry says that the 440 were incinerated in pale yellow flames, which is something more associated with Lugus than Bhall. Maybe this is a sign that Lugus intervened, opening his vault to accept their spirits lest they forever perish when their physical forms were reduced to ash?



    The bestiary actually says that "many" of the Seraphim were angels of Bhall, so it could be that some of them were always in Lugus's employ or defected from another god like Junil. I'm fairly certain that they are all true angels though, not one of them a former human. That pedia entry sounds to me more like something found in one of the fan fiction threads and never in any way endorsed by Kael.
     
  4. Elder Methyl

    Elder Methyl Chieftain

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    Yep, it was a KillerClowns story.
     
  5. exolead

    exolead Chieftain

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    And speaking of Lugus...
    What would his relationship with Ceridwen be?
    I mean, she used to be the Angel of Stars, if I recall correctly, and the Sun is a prominent star. When she fell she became the Queen of Secrets, and Lugus' precept is about revealing things, enlightment, and such; wouldn't it be opposed to the secrecy of Ceridwen (if not as much) almost like it is opposed to the subterfuge of Esus?
    It is complete speculation on my part but, is it not some sort of twisted, love-hate relationship? :p
     
  6. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    In our world the Sun is the closest star, but in Erebus stars and the sun could very well be entirely distinct.


    Lugus is an enemy of Ceridwen, even if not a direct opposite. In the scenarios we see that The Order mostly fights The Octopus Overlords, and it is The Empyrean that fights The Ashen Veil as well as Ceridwen's personal cult called The Emrys. Mikel, a captain in the Radiant Guard who is the only member of this Empyrean military force whose name is known, was raised among the Sheaim as the son of an Emry and still bears the demonic rune tattoos to prove it. I personally suspect that Chalid Akharien himself is a former priest of Ceridwen who repented of his sins and now serves Lugus as penance. I have never gotten official confirmation of this theory, but it would explain his evil-looking violet tattoos.
     
  7. exolead

    exolead Chieftain

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    I see, and that leads me to another inquiry!
    Is The Ashen Veil a syncretic religion focused on the worship of the 7 (8 if we count Bhall) Fallen Gods, or is it Agares' personal cult? If the first assumption is correct, I could logically follow that the Emrys may be a subcult or order within the AV, right?
    --
    And that leads me to another, rather speculative question:
    Since I value your opinions a lot, for you seem to know much of FfH, how do you, or the lore for that matter, picture sheaim society?
    I remeber Os-Gabella's entry, about a sheaim city, and the guards mocking refugees at the gates... but, how do you see it? Is it a violent quasi anarchic society? A ruthless police state? Maybe a medieval feudal-theocratic state, but preaching the values of the veil instead of our world's christianity? Options I imagine.
     
  8. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I believe that the Ashen Veil worships a Pandemonium, and that the vast majority of ritualists would never dare seek to make bargains with the actual gods that rule over the powers of hell. Initiates at the lowest levels would only be made aware of some random Imp that can answer prayers. They would have to demonstrate their ongoing corruption before they could learn the names and methods of appealing to more powerful demons. At highest levels Ritualists and Profanes may learned to invoke the names of the fallen gods in order to better manipulate the demons with whom they wish to bargain, but would rarely have any desire address the gods directly. Agares' name may be invoked the most often, but only because he is the one god whom every demon respects. If the demon being addressed is known to be loyal to a different deity, then a ritual entreating him by the other god's name would be preferred. The name of Aeron is probably the second most favorite, because the majority demons who made deals on Erebus do so for school credit at the academy which is Aeron's hell. Imps are the lowest level of students there, and are the first allowed back into Erebus on their own. Demon who have never been to Aeron's hell do not yet have the sort of powers that the Veil wishes to invoke, or the subtle cunning necessary to make the kinds of deals that always favor Hell in the long run.


    Gods are not the only beings worshiped in Erebus. The Cultists of the Overlords worship the figments of a sleeping god's twisted imagination, and the Fellowship worships nature itself rather than just the God of Nature. The Lord of the Balors scenario seems to imply that The Demon Lords seek worship for themselves rather than acting only as emissaries for the gods they serve. Agares gives the free reign in the kingdoms they set up within the lowest hell, which they can rule as a god rules his vault. I suspect that The Demon Lords prefer to think of themselves as gods, and to present themselves as such to mortals. While they may acknowledge the authority of higher powers, the true gods of The Ashen Veil are the Demons Lords, most of whom are former mortals. (The real gods of hell probably don't mind this, as those worshiping a being that embodies their precept still gives them ownership of the soul.)


    Most of those involved with The Ashen Veil are seeking only temporal power, and are shortsighted enough to see the future punishment of hell as a fair price to pay. The truly corrupt however have different reasons. They have been enlightened to a degree about the true nature of hell, are resigned to the fact that they are already damned to go there, and desire to help hasten their own transformation into demons. Some do this because they are terrified of the horrors that await them on the eternal battlefield of Camulos's hell, and believe that the only salvation from this fate is to do enough evil to be allowed to skip this stage and go straight to Aeron's infernal academy. Others don't care about suffering or salvation, but instead impatiently seek to be deified as a Demon Lord for future generations to worship.


    The various evil gods, or at least several of them, have their own religions which are seperate from The Ashen Veil but which are not incompatible with it. (I suspect that Agares himself currently has no personal cult, as seeking exclusive worship is something he turned his back on when he destroyed Nyx. He wants to make a point that he is different from The One, and thus with the advent of the Luonnatar might shy away even more from being worshiped directly.) There is no reason one could not be a devoted worshiper of Ceridwen or Mammon and still partake in most of the demonic rituals of the Veil. Being connected to one god in particular might hurt your chances of making a deal with a demon who does not get along with that god, but a devoting to an evil god could also open up new doors with demons that serve the same god as you. In the real world the idea that someone can follow only one religion was fairly uncommon before the Abraham faiths came to dominance. In antiquity many priesthoods were henothiestsic (requiring the priests themselves devote themselves to one particular god), but the followers were free or even expected to worship many gods of the pantheon. There were also many cults that had no problem with allowing even their highest priests to serve as priests for other gods as well. There is no reason why an Emry would have to be involved with The Ashen Veil, but also not hard to imagine the same man being a successful priest in both religions. An initiate of Ceridwen's cult would have access to the kind of secrets that would give him a significant advantage in dealing with demons and make him a very desirable recruit for the Veil. (The Stewards of Inequity would give no such advantage, as most members are completely unaware of the god they serve and of the demons who serve him. Esus strongly prefers the service of living beings over that of demons and so he does not have many demons serving him. He is also strongly against the goals of destroying Erebus or uniting it with Hell. As such, The Council of Esus is much less compatible with The Ashen Veil. The White Hand may have been fairly incompatible too, as Mulcarn was a jealous god who had too few worshipers to be willing to share them with lesser beings.)




    Kael has described the Sheaim as being like a very dark version of the USA, but by that I believe he meant sort of a libertarian Dystopia. Kael said that they care a lot about personal liberty, but tend to think of such ideals as applying to an influential Emry far more than to the diseased whores he hires. Violent quasi anarchic is probably the closest of the choices you listed, but that still isn't quite right. In many ways it is very tightly controlled and regulated, but these are not readily apparent. Almost no one knows that the language they speak was specifically designed so that every word anyone speaks plays a part in a grand ritual meant to bring the end of the world. They are also unaware of the great pains that are taken to control and modify the language, to compensate for the random changes to the ritual that new slang terms are constantly introducing. The elites among the Sheaim most likely treat their own estates as ruthless police states, without much if any recourse to higher authorities available to the abused. One thing is it not is a theocracy. The Sheaim officially have freedom of religion, and but not many actually follow any faith. The Emyrs and the Ashen Veil both pander to the elites, and don't bother themselves with the vulgar crowds except to kidnap an occasional human sacrifice. Those who proselytize a religion devoted to a good god tend to end up as the human sacrifice. Even though his soul is owned by Ceridwen, Tebryn Arbdandi is not a member of the Emrys and does not really think highly of the cult. In general the leaders of the Sheaim are not above declaring any religion official if it suits their goals, but the rarely bother since their people are not particularly inclined towards even the appearance of piety.
     
  9. exolead

    exolead Chieftain

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    Oh, I see.
    Yet, just one little detail: you say that most people are afraid of falling in Camulos'; that scenario may be true, but... Maybe someone who really revels in battle, slaughter, bloodshed, and all that, and happens to be born directly into that vault because of its love of strife, might actually like to reside there?
    From the Compendium:
    "A petitioner that is born here begins small and weak. (...) In time they become stronger until eventually their conquests will be legendary."
    Does this mean that anyone, no matter wheter it is, say, perhaps a particullary brutal and strong Doviello or a member of some other tribe/nation who is quite good at combat, and would actually fancy going out there to test his mettle, is nonetheless born a small Manes?
    And, if your conquest there are not glorious enough, are you bound to stay there?
    Can you actually die in there? If some more powerful being, or even Camulos himself gets you and wipes the floor with you, what happens?
     
  10. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    There might be some madmen that would revel in the battle of Camulos's hell, but the vast majority would hate it there.


    Perditioners become Manes when they enter Mulcarn's hell. When they enter Camulos's, they are no longer Manes but Spinagons. They have no memories of who they once were, which also means all their talents are gone. A few (like the archmage Ram who would be rescued by Ceridwen and turned into Tebryn Arbandi) may eventually recall who they used to be, but most never care to recall anything. While their exact forms and abilities differ based on who they used to be, I would not expect one's strengths from life to carry over. It seems more likely that Camulos would try to humble the soul by making it weakest where it once was strong, forcing it to develop new strengths rather than relying on the old.

    I suppose it is possible that Camolus may show some favoritism to his most devout worshipers, but I doubt they get too much of an advantage. Even if they retained everything of who they used to be it wouldn't protect them much from the many powerful enemies they would face there. Most of those who enter his world come there from Mammon's after passing through Mulcarn's, but those truly psychopathic may skip straight to the battlefield. The only confirmed worshipers of Camulos that we know about are Charadon and Duin Halfmorn, both of whom we know went straight to his hell. Strangely enough, he sent both of them back to Erebus to be resurrected in their old form rather than processing them into demons. Those in Erebus who sought to resurrect them had to pray to the God of Strike for assistance. No mortal can resurrect a soul that has departed the plain, and even the god of life had to ask for permission to claim a soul that had already passed into another god's vault.


    Most of those who make it to Camulos's hell stay there indefinitely, suffering worse torment than could be imagined on Erebus. Those imprisoned in the pits and tunnels below the surface cannot die no longer how much they endure. They cannot escape these prisons before being transformed into Pit Beasts that view all pain as pleasure.

    Kael has said that powerful demons come to this vault to hunt for slaves, which are sometimes taken to fight in their armies in Erebus. Such demons tend to the stronger than the students at Aeron's academy, but their minds are no weaker than those of many wild animals. They are never granted freedom, but may be entrusted either directly to a more intelligent demon master or to an unholy priest. They are used to power Thralls like Saverous, and possibly even the ordinary Drowns and Stygian guards of the Overlords. More often though, demons taken captive on the fields of Camulos are only used to fight in arenas for the entertainment of greater demons.

    Kael also said that sometimes demons hunt in this hell simply for pleasure of killing their victims. This might indicate a way that they can die in hell and be released from suffering, but I strongly suspect that such victims are instead simply reset, returning again as a Spinagon without memory, reason, or strength to endure another agonizing chance to rise to power. (I know that Mammon forced those who fail to make any progress in his vault to start over again without memories of the experience.) The Bestiary of Erebus however reveals that the Ira are demons of Camulos that are also called Drinkers because they consume souls for power, much like vampires do. I was about to say that falling victim to them might be the only true death in hell, but then I remembered there is reason to believe that there might be others in hell that can consume souls, presumably destroying them forever or at least reducing them in such a state that only The One could restore them. In The Wages of Sin, Flauros says that while he has no loyalty to hell he does use similar methods of extracting power from souls, implying that demon lords may consume souls too. In the Beltaine Cycle Agares himself is shown consuming the soul of Cernunnos's son Gower.
     
  11. Dracosolon

    Dracosolon Chieftain

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    Hello there.
    I, too, have some questions:
    -I already asked it, but: Why did Gyra prevented Basium from destroying the Sidar, since they indirectly serve Laroth himself and are technically undead?
    -How does the Ljosalfar society represent the Precept of Growth? I can quite easily picture it for the other civilizations, but the Ljosalfar... How does they emphasize progressive change and maturation?
     
  12. tribble

    tribble Chieftain

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    Stygian Guards. What are they, really?
     
  13. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    @Dracosolon

    The Sidar may serve Laroth's purposes, but they are completely unaware of this. They still revere Arawn, and in some cases actively worship him despite how indifferent he is to this fact. Some still offer prayers and praises to Arawn and his angels, including Gyra herself. She does not hold their ignorance against her. It is also likely that Arawn ordered Basium to leave them alone, and although he did

    They are not technically undead. They might seem similar, but they abhor the undead and would react violently if you insulted them so. The undead have their souls held back from their eternal rest, usually against their will. When not sustained by a living body, a mortal spirit remaining in Erebus grows weary and sick. This sickness can pass to the world around, spreading the sort of corruption that transformed the paradise of Nemora into the hell-like Dead Lands once the local Well of Creation was stopped up to prevent the sluaghs drawn there from escaping to the next world. Much like Vampires, Shades retain their very much living bodies. Their souls do not linger in Erebus passed their time, but rather slowly move into the Netherworld, piece by piece, while the body still lives.


    Yeah, it doesn't seem like the Ljosalfar don't epitomize their sphere as well as many other spheres do. I many ways they seem like the most stagnant of civs. It should probably be noted however that the Nature sphere does not only stand for change, but for change that is so slow that no one can notice it while it is happening. It is not only opposed to the stasis of ice, but also to the radical change of fire. They may only seem more constant because humanity has experienced such radical upheavals that have forced renaissances and declines while the elves stayed the steady course. One thing I can say though is that the younger elven leaders show the cynical pragmatism that many gain with age, and the childlike idealism of the past lives on in only a few ancient individuals such as Arendel Phaedra.

    @tribble

    All I can say with certainty about the Stygian Guards is what is found in the Bestiary:

    The fact that they are listed under the Danalin section may indicate that they may be former angels of the God of Water who have betrayed their god to serve the Archangel of Mind. Hastur, The Lord of Nightmares, now dwells in Danalin's vault whispering in his ear so as to corrupt his dreams and create The Octopus Overlords. He cannot control the Overlords fully, but has more influence in their religion than anyone.

    My first thought however was that Stygian Guards, like Drowns, are a type of Thrall. Thralls are mortals (whether living or dead) that are possessed by violent and unpredictable spirits taken captive in Camulos's hell. Hastur surely has plenty of hunter demons loyal to him which take many denizens of this hell as slaves. A weak mortal body hosting a powerful chaos demon could become so mutated as to be completely unrecognizable.

     
  14. exolead

    exolead Chieftain

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    New question here:

    What would the Balseraph's reaction to OO be?
    I generally see their society as too erratic and disorderly to embrace one official religion, and the average balseraph madman-citizen as rather...uninterested? in religious themes. But I think that there is a common point that OO and Balseraphs could, lorewise, relate to; madness that is (then again, that in itself may keep them from finding common ground :D).
    Maybe some coastal Balseraph settlements could have OO zealots and/or Asylums? It seems sensible speculation to me.
    Also, in the Lord of the Balors scenario, it is Keelyn the one who "founds" OO, and she seems to have no problem at all with the little sea fellows and their stories (only that they smell funny).
     
  15. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Their real dominant religion of the Balseraphs is the Stewards of Inequity, but it is not the sort of religion that appeals to the masses or which most worshipers even know that they follow. The Octopus Overlord are almost certainly popular among the populace. The Momus scenario shows OO as the dominant religion in Balseraph lands. It also shows their land as including or at least bordering the Cliffs of Hastur (Mardero's entry mentions a Bannor town in the area, so the cliffs may mark the boundary between the two nations), an area obviously associated with the Archangel of Mind that is so influential over the Overlords.


    The Balseraphs certainly control some coastal regions. The point of The Momus is Falamar competing to be granted a fleet of Balseraph ships once his fleet is crashed asunder against Balseraph shores. Lanun ships regularly visit Balseraph ports. The two nations are close enighbors and trading partners. The Pirates like to drink mostly fine Balseraph wine, or occasionally the much stronger Balseraph beverage called Oblivio which is mentioned in the mentioned in the OO constellation event.
     
  16. Acrux

    Acrux Chieftain

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    A question about "magic" and the gods:

    Could the gods prevent an individual from using magic associated with their domain? Could Ceridwen prevent an individual from using magic at all? How much control do they even have over it? After Bhall's fall, the nature of fire magic is said to have changed somewhat. I don't recall seeing anywhere that Mulcurn's death affected ice magic in any way.
     
  17. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    There is no way for a god to prevent any particular individual from using his precept of magic without denying the power to everyone indiscriminately. Kael has said that the only way to prevent the use of a domain of magic is for the god of that domain to withdraw himself and his angels from Erebus completely. During the Age of Magic, Arawn did just this, leaving the spheres of Life and Death inaccessible for quite some time.


    Mortals are normally incapable of reaching to channel mana from beyond the plane of Erebus itself, whereas gods can do so with ease. The gods have deep wells of power within themselves, and can always recharge themselves from the infinite plains of pure elements through the Gems of Creation which Agares made available to all the gods. At some point after Arawn withdrew, The Three Brothers (likely with the help of Ceridwen) managed to steal three of the Gems of Creation from Agares. Because of this, infinite plains of Death, Air, and Water are now accessible by mortals. All (un)death magic in Erebus is now drawn from the Opalus Mortis held in the hand of Tuoni, the eldest of the three brothers. Arawn continues to stay withdrawn despite knowing that it can do nothing to prevent mortals from wielding death anymore, and despite having given the precept of Life to Sucellus for him to reintroduce into Erebus to help the recovery from the Age of Ice.



    It is hard to say exactly how much control the gods have over their spheres. (I would guess that is is less than the control that the spheres have over the gods.) It was said that in the Age of Magic Fire mana could not harm the innocent, but there are also references of it doing just that as far back as the Age of Dragons. I prefer to think of this discriminating nature either as a quality only of the sacred fire of Braduk, or as something that requires direct angelic intervention in each case, allowing some flames to get out of control when the angels of Bhall did not have enough advance warning to come and keep them tame. With her fall there has been no angel trying to keep the flames guided, making it the easier sphere to use but the hardest to keep under complete control.

    The nature of fire has always been rather wildly passionate though, whereas Ice has always sought to go back to how things used to be. We haven't heard much about how Ice magic has changed, but then again we have heard almost nothing of it being used at all except by Auric and those serving him. The main thing we know about the Ice sphere is that it desperately seeks to gain a new master, in the form of Auric ascended.
     
  18. Elder Methyl

    Elder Methyl Chieftain

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    How excatly did the Amurite's advancement in the Age of Ice fade away during the Thaw?
     
  19. exolead

    exolead Chieftain

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    Why would gods with conflicting interests band together?
    Since, amidst other examples, one faction (Esus) seeks to preserve Erebus, or more properly, would not like to see it destroyed and/or merging with Hell (Ceridwen, Agares, et al.). And lets not forget about Mulcarn, who abhors change, joining forces with Agares; who, as entropy, basically is change in everything, slowly achieving its destruction.
     

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