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Some lore questions!

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by exolead, Jul 31, 2011.

  1. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    The former. Kael has not said anything remotely hinting that this theory is correct. I don't really think that Kael really planned for it to be this way, just that it works and makes things so much cooler. Actually, I don't think Kael ever wrote Auric's back story in very much depth. At one point when I mentioned that I'd rather Auric come from a village unaffiliated with nay nation in the game, Kael said he would rather him be born an Illian, but he did not sound like there was much back story already written that demanded it. Auric's parents names are only mentioned once in passing, and described only as "nice enough." He himself complained that in Ashes of Brigdarrow Auric seemed much more like a plot device than a three dimensional character like the other children. Kael intended for Auric's personality to be defined largely though his Bipolar Disorder, but does not know enough about the condition to show early signs and flush out his character in childhood. (Similarly, Henri Ghouls/Perpentach is actually meant to be Autistic, although the copies of his victims minds that remain in his head may make him seem like he has Dissociative Identity Disorder.)


    The only parts I took from the draft of that Kael shared years ago were Auric's parents' names, the location of their homestead, Illian marriage customs, and the way that Brigdarrow was destroyed. FfH:AoI did however make it clear that Kylorin most wants to live a simple life on a small family farm with his beloved wife, and the Ulvin homestead on the outskirts of the small village of Brigdarrow seems as good a place as any. Auric's extreme affinity for magic makes more sense in a child of Kylorin, but he was clearly born and raised Illian rather than Amurite. Auric often amazed his peers with his extensive knowledge of obscure lore in all sorts of random (non-magical) matters, which he might have picked up from a millennia old father who was careful to hide his knowledge about magic but much looser with what he knew about frogs, herbal medicine, and constellations.



    He was never planning on publishing Ashes of Brigdarrow on its own, but rather including it The Book of Tears, an anthology of short stories about Erebus. I haven't heard anything official about it in nearly two years. I believe that Kael's new job working on Stardock's Elemental: War of Magic has kept him too busy to work on it much.
     
  2. A Moon

    A Moon The "A" is silent

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    I'm away for two weeks, and when I get back? This treasure trove! I need to take more holidays.
     
  3. exolead

    exolead Chieftain

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    Magister, I bring thee... More questions!
    If you would be so kind to answer =) (or anyone on this forum, of course)

    1- Shouldn't be Creation a "sub-sphere" of Life? I think they have too much in common to be separated, especially given that there cannot really be any life without an act of creation.


    2- What mechanism determines which heaven/vault/hell is the soul destined to? Is it predetermined, or conditional to the actions and affinities a being takes during his existence on Erebus?
     
  4. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    No, Life and Creation are at least as distinct from each other as they are from Nature, probably more so.

    Creation is about creativity, fertility, genius, originality, and perhaps also emergence. In his role as a fertility god Amathaon looks after seeds sprouting and pregnant women bearing their children, but he has generally lost all interest by the time a lifeforms is mature enough to survive on its own. Creation is the sphere directly opposed to Entropy. Before the fall it had some antagonism towards Hope, although as with all opposites The One designed the relationship to be complimentary. Whereas Hope sets certain goals to achieve and can lead to despair when the goals are unachievable, Creation is unhindered by goals and is free to stumble into better ideas than anyone could anticipate. Entropy takes order and decays it into chaos. Creation causes new forms of order to emerge from the chaos.


    Kael once explained that while there is only one sphere named chaos, he considers the spheres of Bhall and Tali to be just as chaotic as that of Camulos, only in different ways. I would add Amathaon and his Creative Chaos to the list to make 4 very distinct chaos gods. The chaos of Bhall/fire is that of unbridled passion, raging against a system to bring it crashing down. Before the fall this passion was indignation against the unjust, but now it is without direction. Tali/Air is chaos without malice, random, irresponsible actions taken just because they seemed like they could be great fun. It would not be far off to call Tali the God of Comic Relief. Camulos now represents Strive, chaos without purpose or restraint. He is for a violent anarchy where individuals refuse any external authority and cause harm to their fellows without any rational motivation. Originally he represented Peace, but was still an Anarchist. He saw us all as equals with equally valid opinions and thus no right to impose anything on others. This Pacifist Anarchist sphere was supposed to teach us to respect the freedom of others, but has since decided that we should only worry about our own freedom to do anything to anyone.



    Life is a constant struggle. It is not just about living, it is about living life with a purpose. It risks everything for greater goals. It is about getting back up when hardships knock you down, about healing and becoming as good or better than you were before. It is the opposite of Death, which is all about resignation. Death decides that it is better to sit idly by as the world continues because one is too weary of fighting and does not think that the rewards are still worth the cost. Most people tend to think in terms of connotations, where life is good and death is bad, but it is much more accurate to say that life is violent and death is gentle. (Remember, Basium is the archangel of life.) Of course, there is no death magic in Erebus. Arawn has given up and shut his power off from the world. What we call death magic is all about undeath, denying souls the slumber they want, need, and deserve.


    Nature is all about growth, maturation, and evolution. Nature deals only with gradual changes, usually too gradual for anyone to notice that they are happening, but changes that are continuous and profound. While Amathaon may be responsible for acorns sprouting and babies being born, it is Cernunnos (previously Sucellus) who is concerned with making those sprouts become mighty oaks and infants become a fully grown adults.




    When the first mortals were created, Arawn offered to accept all the souls of the departed into his realm. At the time this was acceptable to all parties. As the Godswar raged on, the gods discovered that the souls of humans (an the races descended from them) were a source of tremendous power. The divine spark that we inherited from Nemed (the original God of Life who gave up his godhood to father our race) gives us the potential to surpass anything the gods created and rival the gods themselves. Human souls also also easy to manipulate, making them the resource that divinities most desire. They may have experimented with human souls during the Godswar, but this required theft as The Twenty One had agreed that departed souls belonged in their own dreamworld within Arawn's domain. With the writing of The Compact, the gods were eager to grant themselves the authority to openly make use of this resource. The Compact states that souls become the property of whatever god or precept that they serve, and that Arawn shall continue to take custody of any unclaimed soul. Paying lip service to a god or religion is not enough to transfer ownership of a soul. Usually true devotion is required, but one does not have to be able to recognize this devotion in himself. (Arthendain, a hero of the Runes of Kilmorph religion, did not have enough devotion for his soul to be claimed by Kilmorph. Instead he departed to Arawn's Netherworld, until Sucellus convinced Arawn that his service fighting to stop Mary Morbus and her plague was devotion to life and makes him property of the God of Life. Sucellus could have chosen to turn the dwarf into an angel, but instead opted to resurrect him so he could continue to serve life in life.) Almost no one who is devoted to Mammon knows that he serves Mammon. The God of Greed prefers that they think themselves to serve only themselves. Greed is the most common vice among humanity, so Mammon owns more souls than any god. Additionally, the evil gods have taken to pooling their claims of ownership, and taking possession of any souls that served all eight of their spheres combined more than their rivals'. The majority of souls still go to Arawn, but a large minority that belong with Arawn are instead stuck in Mulcarn's vault. Souls with so little devotion are very unlikely to become powerful angels or demons, but the evil gods have united their hells into one machine for the purpose of making them develop into something useful.

    Kael has said that, even after death, a soul never looses the ability to choose for itself a new master. Souls that have ascended to become angels of good can be corrupted into demons, and those that have been processed into demons can repent to become angels. Most souls stick with the decisions they made in life, but changing loyalties happens often enough that the great machine of hell includes the vault of Esus as a trap intended to catch and disillusion those once-mortal demons that are on their way to becoming virtuous. Hell is also set up so that, once processed, demons can choose to serve any evil god. Presenting them with seven easy options may distract them from the fact that there are really fourteen harder choices no one wants to mention.
     
  5. exolead

    exolead Chieftain

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    Oh I understand now, I previously saw creation as pertaining exclusively to the fertilty aspect; thanks again MC! ^^
     
  6. exolead

    exolead Chieftain

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    Two more!:

    What is an Aurealis? They have neither a Pedia entry nor a Bestiary one, they are only featured as Sun III summons; I assume they are servants of Lugus, but, is there anything more to them?

    Lugus was very close to Bhall before her fall, correct? I assume this, since old and classical interpretations viewed the Sun as a massive ball of fire floating on the aether, maybe this applies to Erebus too, and Sun and fire share a relationship, no?
     
  7. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I believe that an Aurealis is simply an elemental of sunlight. The word appears to be Latin for "Golden thing."


    I believe that sun and fire were rather close, but that Lugus was not quite as close of an ally of Bhall as was Junil. Still, the vast majority of the angels of fire who refused to be corrupted along with their goddess changed their allegiance to serve Lugus. Many of the most powerful members of Lugus's heavenly host are Seraphim, which were all created by Bhall and which remain beings of great passion rather then honesty and enlightenment. Lugus remains loyal and welcoming to the Seraphim, whereas most of the gods are extremely suspicious of them since many who were not corrupted immediately later followed in their creator's footsteps and become demons of great power. I suspect that while Junil is glad that the Seraphim continue to have their ancient passion for justice rather than vengeance, a large part of him still considers them traitors for breaking their oaths of allegiance to their fallen creator goddess. The fact that The Empyrean is a term than traditionally referred to The Heaven of Fire makes me think that Lugus's heaven has absorbed many fragments of Bhall's broken heaven, and that he may have named his modern religion in honor of the name of the ancient religion of the righteous Bhall. Lugus's own ancient religion (which had existed since the age of dragons, when once of its acolytes became the first victim of a vampire feeding) was completely exterminated more than 600 years before the events of the Into The Desert scenario, which could be as much as a century before Bhall's fall.
     
  8. exolead

    exolead Chieftain

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    I see, and yet another topic intrigues me now:
    If Cambions ans Aasimars (don't know if this is the correct plural form), are possible and do actually exist, is (at least in theory) the union of an angel and a demon possible? What would the result be?
     
  9. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    The short answer: Mardero and his brothers.

    Of course, that was only in Kael's D&D campaign, where Lita the Witch was actually an angel of Oghma, and the world where she lived was (unbeknownst to almost all of its inhabitants) Oghma's besieged vault.

    Excluding that example, I am unaware of any union between a mortal and an angel/demon where the mortal was not the female in the pair.

    I tend to prefer to think that mortal women can be impregnated by divine beings but that mortals cannot impregnate angels/demons. On the other hand, such pregnancies might occur but simply be aborted when the non-human female leaves the physical plain of Erebus to return to her god's vault, where she ceases to have a physical womb capable of carrying a fetus. If humans cannot have children in other plains, then angels and demons likely cannot either.

    (The Succubus entry mentions that they sometimes sire cambions, but never mentions giving birth to them. A Succubus can change genders, becoming an Incubus, so while it may have sex with men in female form it may only produce offspring with females in male form. In the traditional Judeo-Christian folk lore of the real world, demons were considered unable to create life in any way, either as a father or a mother. A Succubus would have sex with male in order to collect his seed, and then turn into an Incubus in order to use that seed to impregnate a female. A Cambion would thus be fully human, just somehow corrupted by a process that replaced the loving union of man and wife with demonic activity.)

    Male angels/demons may be able to have brief dalliances with mortal women while here on various on missions, but after the signing of the compact it is probably hard to justify a mission that would last long enough for the female to carry a child to term. She would have to get explicit permission from her higher-ups for this, which might be very hard to arrange. Actually giving birth would probably require her to fall, becoming a mortal and likely not passing on divine power to her progeny.

    It might also be important to consider that humans originally inherited their mortality from the mother's side. Anyone born from (Os-)Gabella instead of Anesidora would be a true immortal. It could be that a child born from the womb of an immortal angel or demon would also inherit immortality. The gods learned their lesson from Gabella, and thus likely have an agreement not to allow their angels or demons to become mothers lest the world be filled with immortal humans. It could also be significant that the Divine Spark was inherited from the father's side, from Nemed. It could be that supernatural powers in general descend from the father's side, and a cambion of aasimar with a mortal father would not have any sort of special abilities.
     
  10. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    Another lore question, Magister. Beside leaders like Sabathiel, Varn, Os-Gabella, who is the head/prominent character of each religions in FfH? I see names like Vaghan of Lugus or Calwinna of Junil. Are these some prominent figure in Empyrean and Order?
     
  11. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Vaghan of Lugus was a great hero of the Empyrean, probably second only to Chalid Astrakien. He lead the first assault against the Broken Lands in order to prevent Tebryn Arbandi from destroying the world. Just before the events of the Black Tower scenario, Vaghan was devoured by the newly awakened Abashi the Black Dragon. It was his failure that made it necessary for Condatis, the Archangel of Water, to recruit Falamar to complete the task.


    I don't think anything about Calwinna of Junil has been released besides the name. The epithet makes a connection to The Order seem likely though.
     
  12. exolead

    exolead Chieftain

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    MC, I bring thee more questions! ^_^

    Lorewise, what race would that shady, obscure figure known as "Minister Koun" belong to?
    (Or was it Magister Koun?, meh I do not remember right now)

    Am I right if I assume that, before the fall, Nantosuelta and Camulos were rather close, and/or fond of each other?
    I mean, I remeber you saying that Nantosuelta has no interest in hierachies of any sort, nor in being revered in such a way, and I really think, based on what lore I have available and from reading some other posts that Camulos used to be some sort of, um, let's say "punk-rock, vegan, pacifist" before his fall; I think it's similar to Nantosuelta's way of seeing things (And now after his fall, I think Camulos still is, in a way, a punk-rock, carnivore?, warhawk, lol; someone who just wants to do anything he wants, how and when he wants, all cause, no consecuences, he vyies for his absolute freedom disregarding everything that surrounds him)
    ___
    Anyways, thanks in advance for your answers, they are rather complete and interesting :D
     
  13. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Not much has been reveled about Minister Koun, but I am fairly certain that he was a Grigori. When first added to the game he was only able to lead the Grigori, and he cannot adopt any religion. If I had to guess, I'd say that he is one of those politically connected city folk that Cassiel always disliked. Cassiel set up a system that favored yeoman farmers over ambitious merchants and politicians (who almost invariably worship Mammon, whether they know it or not). I suspect that Cassiel's demise at the hands of Auric Ulvin provided demagogues like Minister Koun with the opportunity to overthrow his system and set up a more traditional democratic republic, dominated by the interests of corrupt crony capitalism.


    Nantosuelta and Camulos may well have been friends, but her closest relationship was always with Sucellus. She desires to make everything and everyone better fulfill its purpose. She wants you to be the best you you can be, which generally requires the personal growth and maturation of the sphere of Nature. When dealing with objects the enchantment sphere can enhance their intrinsic properties, but not give them abilities unrelated to their purpose. It can cause a knife to become better at cutting (by making it sharper, resistant to wear and tear, unable to rust, etc), but it cannot make it double as a flashlight or a fire extinguisher.

    One of Nantosuelta's most important titles is Angel of Virtue. She is the ultimate champion of Virtue Ethics and opposes pragmatic ethics, deontology, and consequentialism (including utilitarianism). She is certainly not about damning the consequences like the amoral Camulos, but to her there can be no more important consequence of any action than how it influences the actor's character and self perception.
     
  14. exolead

    exolead Chieftain

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    Hey Magister!
    Another thought crossed my mind, and it became the following question:
    Are all religions of Erebus susceptible to the corruption inherent to human nature?

    I mean, besides traditionally evil religions like OO and AV, and CoE which actually encourages crime, I know that The Order itself became corrupt at some point in time (then again, extremes are really similar) but what I mean is... I find it rather hard for The Empyrean to fall or to become corrupted, maybe it is just my idealized version; but their emphasis in debate, dialogue, conciliation, and discovering the personal truths of everyone seems a rather pure goal. I remember from the lore, more precisely Cassiel's entry on Civilopedia, that certain extent of corruption exists in RoK, and the FoL, but nothing is ever said of The Empyrean...maybe they remained truly pious?
     
  15. deanej

    deanej Chieftain

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    The Empyrean is also fairly new... they might need more time. I would think all of the religions would be susceptible to corruption given that humans are the ones doing the worshiping and implementing the religion in Erebus.
     
  16. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    The reason Cassiel's entry does not mention the Empyrean is because neither it nor the Council of Esus had been added to the game at the time it was written, and it has not been updated since.


    I know that some very corrupt temples to Lugus exist, but those are in Mammon's Hell rather than Erebus. His great city contains temples to every god there is or which has ever been imagined, except for Mammon himself.


    I'm sure that the Empyrean could become corrupt, but it has not really been around long enough for that to happen yet on a large scale. Lugus had a religion during the Age of Dragons, but all of its followers were exterminated over 600 years before Decius fled into the Desert of Myrh. Before they encountered Varn Gossam, the Malakim Lightbringers were beginning to regain their reverence for Lugus but did not have any sort of doctrine. Varn Gossam received the founding doctrines directly from the God of Light, and as of the time of the scenarios is still in regular communion with the source of the revelation. As an elf with a presumable indefinite lifespan, Varn will probably stick around long enough to considerably hinder the development of corruption.


    The main weakness of the Empyrean is that its followers tend to continue debating long past the point where definitive action should have been made. As Capria rather despairingly said, "While the Order wages war, the Empyrean discusses." Their enlightened reasoning leads them to far better solutions than a more impulsive approach could have, but often these solutions are only found once the opportunity to enact them has passed and they have become moot points. Its followers are also prone to being distracted by their preoccupation with high matters that they can neglect the everyday needs of those close to them. When Varn Gossam was busy establishing the Overcouncil he had no time for his beloved wife. He left her so lonely that she cheated on him, and after he discovered this did not do enough to assure her of his forgiveness, which led to her suicide.

    We haven't really seen such abuses yet, but the worship of he precept of light is prone to causing one to be so honest that one becomes offensively blunt or abrasive, and so curious that one has no respect for the privacy of others. The secrecy of Esus was designed by The One to serve a useful purpose in the world; it is hard to have intimate friendships with someone who is so open that anything shared in confidence will be announce to the world. In the Roman Catholic Church, a priest that breaks the Seal of Confession is excommunicated; in the Empyrean, a priest would be excommunicated for keeping any part of the confession a secret from the entire congregation. A penitent in the Empyrean would likely be expected to make a full confession in public, before the clergy and congregation engage in an open debate over why each sin was wrong and what sort of penance is appropriate for the specific circumstances of the case. Whenever a sermon is given on sin, it would contain very specific examples of things done by individuals current present. The Empyrean will forgive your sins, but it will never let you forget them.



    Also, I take issue with the phrase "discovering personal truths." The Empyrean firmly believes in absolute, objective, universal truth, not anything personal or subjective. It is open to considering many different perspectives in order to better arrive at this truth, but has no respect for incoherent or irrational arguments. It has great respect for intuitive insights, but they are to be tested rather than followed on an emotionally driven hunch.
     
  17. Elder Methyl

    Elder Methyl Chieftain

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    You mention that the Angels of Mercy are the reason why Esus has his Vault. But what happens when a would-be-repenter does get out of the fake Erebus? For example, what would a Risen Ira be like? Or a Risen Balor? Or a Risen Demon of Mammon?
     
  18. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Kael has made it clear that a perditioner (the soul of a dead mortal) being processed into a demon by the great machine of hell can escape hell and undo the demonic transformation by proceeding through it backwards and demonstrating the virtue opposite of the vice that each layer of hell was meant to impart. He has not revealed much about what happens to a perditioner that escapes. I suppose it could probably return to Erebus as a Sluagh (disembodied ghost), returning to what it was between the moment of death and departing for another plane. As a Sluagh it would experience an overwhelming yearning to leave Erebus through one of the Wells of Creation and find rest in Arawn's Netherworld. It would however still be quite possible for some god to claim the soul as his property, based on whatever precept was currently most dear to it. It would probably proceed the same way as if the soul not previously been claimed by the gods of evil. Chances are that a soul that escaped hell with the help of an angel would out of gratitude come to honor the god that sent the angel more than most of those that claimed to serve the god in life, and so would quickly be claimed by its benefactor. A large number of escapees of hell likely move on to Sirona's heaven, and after some time training to become an angel might seek to return again to hell to help others escape.


    Balors were never Perditioners processed into demons by the great machine of hell. They are True Demons, the least of all the divine beings that never experienced mortal life. I believe that most of them were once True Angels of Bhall, but their loyalty is now at least as much to Agares as to their creator. I believe that Ira are also true demons, beings of pure Strife. Mortals are capable of fully experiencing and exemplifying every precept, so their souls are strengthened in all kinds of sin on the way to becoming demon lords. They can choose a specific god to choose and come to exemplify one precept over all others, but their broader capacity remains a great strength. True Angels and Demons were made to embody their creator's precept. Although we see from the Beltaine Cycle that even the archangel Cernunnos contained some small measure of precepts such as law and passion, they are from the moment of their creation dominated by one precept and don't often bother exploring the others. I do not think that a True Demon would pass through the machine of hell backwards working on virtues to undo a process of transformation that they never experienced. Kael did however state that, although it is exceedingly rare, true demons can rise just as true angels can fall. I suspect that the realignment of a true angel/demon would not take seven steps, but would happen almost instantaneously as it comes to change the one key feature that had so defined it. This is not to say that it could not be preceded by a period of doubt or that it would instantly adjust to its new nature and new powers, but it seems unlikely to be true gradual. When Bhall fell most of her angels were corrupted in an instant. Many of those Seraphim who resisted at first changed their minds later and did not take long at all to become powerful leaders of the demonic hordes. Of course, the Seraphim seem be a special case, trying to stay true to their original precept in uncorrupted form rather than fully assimilating to the sphere of their new god. In general the form of an angel or demon is no strongly determined by the sphere it serves that changing masters would change enough of its characteristics that it could scarcely be discerned from those originally created to serve its new lord.

    Edit: Although, now that I think of it, those "Past Men" who defected from Oghma to serve Mammon seem not to have changed their abilities at all.
     
  19. Elder Methyl

    Elder Methyl Chieftain

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    So there's a chance that True Demons who do rise would retain a measure of their abilities? Interesting...
     
  20. exolead

    exolead Chieftain

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    MC, I seem to understand from your previous posts something I really won't like being truth:
    Does the official, canon storyline have Decius siding with the Malakim?
    When you are given the option of choosing a faction, are those desert bastards the one he chooses? :twitch: It will be a great dissappointment if I read and understood previous posts correctly, but well, hope is the last thing you lose...
     

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