Some old issues

[gozpel]

When I start a game and select pangea, then I want pangea dammit! Not 3-4 continents with a string of 2 tile islands scattered around. A pangea is ONE continent. Period! Is it so bloody hard to program it so all tiles connect? I simply hate having to use boats and stuff.

When I select wet and cold, I don't want to see half the map covered in deserts, it should be jungles and I have no problems with jungles whatsoever...but deserts are crap!

When I select 5 million years era, then the freaking map shouldn't be covered with mountains!

When the other civs start the landgrabbing race, they simply blunder all over my lands and the only way to try to stop them is to declare war (Not wise on Deity). Why can't there be at least some respect for borders? Why can't they ask for right of passage?

When another civ wants your iron or whatever, they simply say "Gimme iron!", why can't they first try to make a trade? So many times they just demand, when they easily could pay a few golds/turn...instead of peace I always end up in war, before I'm prepared.

Ah well, sometimes these things are too much. It usually take quite a few turns before you notice that your pangea map really is just one of a few continents, and playing on deity I want at least the chance to get the kind of worldmap and terrain I select.
Ive been restarting for weeks now and can't seem to get what I want:/

End of turn, back to the game...I WILL find that land of plenty!

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by gozpel

When the other civs start the landgrabbing race, they simply blunder all over my lands and the only way to try to stop them is to declare war (Not wise on Deity). Why can't there be at least some respect for borders? Why can't they ask for right of passage?

National borders didn't exist until recent times. If Egypt wanted to tramp through Palestine to fight the Hittites, they would. After Nationalism, borders should be more resistant to intrusion.

When another civ wants your iron or whatever, they simply say "Gimme iron!", why can't they first try to make a trade? So many times they just demand, when they easily could pay a few golds/turn...instead of peace I always end up in war, before I'm prepared.

Sometimes they offer. Sometimes they demand. If they demand, it means they are not willing to negotiate. You can do the same thing. Sometimes they will give in. Sometimes they will refuse. People make demands because sometimes they are profitable without cost.

 

[Zachriel]

(To made a demand, go to the diplomacy screen and click active. Click on the peace treaty to renegotiate its turns; say, give me 25g and iron working or else I'll cancel the peace.

You can renegotiate every twenty turns for each Civ.)

 

[gozpel]

Originally posted by Zachriel


National borders didn't exist until recent times. If Egypt wanted to tramp through Palestine to fight the Hittites, they would. After Nationalism, borders should be more resistant to intrusion.

I understand that, but imagine this scenario: Babylon is warring against the Zulu and have to wander through my territory, so at this time they have about 20 troops passing. At the same time I have a lone spearman sitting on a rock at my borders. That turn the Babs territory expands and a very agitated Bab-leader screams that I'm intruding and I must leave. That in contrast of their hordes on my territory, seems very stupid. Of course I could send out my 15-20 Immortals and tell the Babs to leave my lands...or else. But that would ruin my plans, as I would like to grab the spoils of war (get some Zulu territory)
In this case a right of passage would be great for Babylon, they would get to their foes quicker and no upset leaders would have to take action.

 

[Zouave]

No, they didn't have national borders in ancient times. But that does not mean that one power could march wherever it felt without consequences, and without angering another major power who might feel threatened or be loathe to allow the other to possibly expand.

Territory controlled by one civ may as well have been inside what amounted to national borders - to trespass on it could mean war, and it generally wasn't done.

In Civ 3 we have repeated violations of our territory by workers, settlers, galleys, and even military units. They repeatedly return, and often won't leave for several turns, and when they do they magically teleport themselves to the other side of our civ where there are some open tiles (the other guy should not even know of).

So, others civs do indeed constantly commit what amount to border violations, which is not historical.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Zouave
No, they didn't have national borders in ancient times. But that does not mean that one power could march wherever it felt without consequences, and without angering another major power who might feel threatened or be loathe to allow the other to possibly expand.

You're right. You would be justified to declare war. Why don't you? Or do little children run your war counsels?

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by gozpel
I understand that, but imagine this scenario: Babylon is warring against the Zulu and have to wander through my territory, so at this time they have about 20 troops passing. At the same time I have a lone spearman sitting on a rock at my borders.

So the Babylonian comes up to you and says you are standing on his rock. Well, you would be within your rights to declare war. What's holding you back? Have you been smoking too much of the peace pipe? Or is the bully Babylonian scaring you?

 

[wohmongarinf00l]

seems like he has other plans.
it would be a useless war with the babylonians cos all he would do is exchange fire with them on his territory and they might get lucky and take some of his cities...

i really dislike the violations though. when they are trespassing i offer them RoP but they won't take it. which doesn't make sense strategically since i am offering them a chance to get to the other side faster and ease my nervousness.

 

[damunzy]

To give you a light at the end of the tunnel:
The expansion pack is supposed to include national borders...Sounds like there might be less Settler Diarrhea.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Originally posted by PaleHorse76
To give you a light at the end of the tunnel:
The expansion pack is supposed to include national borders...Sounds like there might be less Settler Diarrhea.

I thought the national borders are already incl in the territorial concept.

What gets me is the way the AI keeps sending settlers thru my territory to get to that unclaimed patch of land in the middle of my empire. Again and again after I tell them to bug off.

 

[gozpel]

Originally posted by Zachriel


So the Babylonian comes up to you and says you are standing on his rock. Well, you would be within your rights to declare war. What's holding you back? Have you been smoking too much of the peace pipe? Or is the bully Babylonian scaring you?

Well, I suppose you play on chieftain level and have little or no experience playing on harder levels? First off, on deity the other civs get like 8 troops, 2 settlers? and 2 workers...and when you built your first warrior they have 2 cities. And when you have 8 troops, they will have 20 and so on.
So warmongering isn't a good idea before you have some stuff to bacj it up with. To this you can lay the tech race, you lag behind immidiately...and the chance to buy techs are limited, because some aggro civ will always demand your last gold...or else.

So what pipe have you been smoking Zachriel?

 

[gozpel]

Originally posted by wohmongarinf00l
seems like he has other plans.
it would be a useless war with the babylonians cos all he would do is exchange fire with them on his territory and they might get lucky and take some of his cities...

i really dislike the violations though. when they are trespassing i offer them RoP but they won't take it. which doesn't make sense strategically since i am offering them a chance to get to the other side faster and ease my nervousness.

Yes, you're right. My plan was to see what side of Zulu/Babylon would lose most troops, and when I noticed the Zulus threw everything at the Babs and lost all units in my territory...I marched in and razed two of their biggest cities, built them up with my two settlers and expanded with some Zulu workers. I made peace with Shaka and got 6 techs, a small city and all their gold + world map Golden age and churning out immortals, because the Babs are pretty annoyed atm.

ROP seems to be a onesided deal when you're weak, and weak I am, so why doesn't the Babs agree? It was in their interest and now I have those cities they were aiming for. Just plain wierd!

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by gozpel

So warmongering isn't a good idea before you have some stuff to bacj it up with. To this you can lay the tech race, you lag behind immidiately...and the chance to buy techs are limited, because some aggro civ will always demand your last gold...or else.

You're saying that you can't or won't back your complaints with military force. Then can you really blame them for walking all over you?

Your original comment was

When the other civs start the landgrabbing race, they simply blunder all over my lands and the only way to try to stop them is to declare war (Not wise on Deity). Why can't there be at least some respect for borders? Why can't they ask for right of passage?

You have articulated the situation perfectly. Why should they show respect for your borders? Why should they beg you for right of passage? If you have the strength to repel them, then do so. If not . . . .

 

[gozpel]

Originally posted by Zachriel


You're saying that you can't or won't back your complaints with military force. Then can you really blame them for walking all over you?

Your original comment was


You have articulated the situation perfectly. Why should they show respect for your borders? Why should they beg you for right of passage? If you have the strength to repel them, then do so. If not . . . .

Don't be thick! The other civs STARTS with 8 troops (6 warriors, 2 spearmen I think) and on a small map they are all over your territory, when you sit with one city and maybe one warrior.

Do you declare war then? Geez.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by gozpel


Don't be thick! The other civs STARTS with 8 troops (6 warriors, 2 spearmen I think) and on a small map they are all over your territory, when you sit with one city and maybe one warrior.

Do you declare war then? Geez.

Yes, I am quite aware of how Deity works.

Frankly, if you are weak, then you should try to accomodate your betters. Just don't whine and say the game isn't fair. If I was in the AI's shoes, I would walk all over you, too. Or would you prefer that they design the AI to take it easy on you?

 

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by gozpel


Don't be thick! The other civs STARTS with 8 troops (6 warriors, 2 spearmen I think) and on a small map they are all over your territory, when you sit with one city and maybe one warrior.

Do you declare war then? Geez.

Wah, wah. Is the computer too good for you? If you don't want it to cheat, then play Regent or lower. If you don't want to play Regent or lower, then don't complain that the AI cheats. If you want to play Deity, then get used to the fact that the AI is going to be substantially better than throughout the game and is going walk all over you.

 

[gozpel]

From my first post: "When the other civs start the landgrabbing race, they simply blunder all over my lands and the only way to try to stop them is to declare war (Not wise on Deity). Why can't there be at least some respect for borders? Why can't they ask for right of passage?"

THIS is the issue I have, not that the AI is stronger than me. If they are at war with someone else, shouldn't they try to get there faster? Not once have other civs asked me for ROP. And playing Regent and below is just a waste of time, a long wait to see your winning score. Pfft!

Well, lets hope the expansion will include national borders as Palehorse mentioned. That would take care of one problem.

And remember, I'm not bashing the game itself...only a few issues

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by gozpel
And remember, I'm not bashing the game itself...only a few issues

First

But, if you are weak why shouldn't your rival push you around? If you are weak, I myself may very well decide to treat you like a doormat. If you insist on war, then let's have it. And no, I'm not going to give you a RoP and let you tromp on my lands. Indeed, if it were allowed I would insist on a RoP that applies only to my use of your lands, certainly not mine. I am strong. You are weak and must of necessity bend to my will.

I really don't understand why you consider the AI's behavior improper or illegitimate. If you don't want to be a victim of the playground bully, then you had better start pumping iron.

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by gozpel
When I select wet and cold, I don't want to see half the map covered in deserts, it should be jungles and I have no problems with jungles whatsoever...but deserts are crap!

Jungles are produced in great numbers in wet & warm climates.

When I select 5 million years era, then the freaking map shouldn't be covered with mountains!

IIRC, 5 billion vs. 3 billion doesn't radically change the ratio of mountains to plains, etc. -- I think the "age option" primarily affects the distribution (or clumping) of terrain types.

When the other civs start the landgrabbing race, they simply blunder all over my lands and the only way to try to stop them is to declare war (Not wise on Deity). Why can't there be at least some respect for borders? Why can't they ask for right of passage?

When another civ wants your iron or whatever, they simply say "Gimme iron!", why can't they first try to make a trade? So many times they just demand, when they easily could pay a few golds/turn...instead of peace I always end up in war, before I'm prepared.

Others have asked it, but I'll ask it again -- why should the AI respect an inferior civ. It will do and take what it likes until it respects you.

From my first post: "When the other civs start the landgrabbing race, they simply blunder all over my lands and the only way to try to stop them is to declare war (Not wise on Deity). Why can't there be at least some respect for borders? Why can't they ask for right of passage?"

THIS is the issue I have, not that the AI is stronger than me. If they are at war with someone else, shouldn't they try to get there faster? Not once have other civs asked me for ROP.

Well, I think your issue has morphed a little bit through the posts . . . . but, perhaps the AI would rather that you not have free access to its territory (even more strongly than it might appreciate the movement bonus on which you seem to place such a large value).

Ah well, sometimes these things are too much. It usually take quite a few turns before you notice that your pangea map really is just one of a few continents, and playing on deity I want at least the chance to get the kind of worldmap and terrain I select. Ive been restarting for weeks now and can't seem to get what I want:/

With no patience for 1) "boats and stuff," 2) deserts, 3) mountains, and 4) logical (if somewhat ruthless) AI attitude towards you in the early game, how in the world do you have the patience to keep restarting games when the world isn't in absolute perfect accord with your wishes?

And playing Regent and below is just a waste of time, a long wait to see your winning score. Pfft!

Apparently playing on Diety with anything other than a flat, jungle-rich, true panagea and AI's that do not press their early advantage (while they still have the advantage) is also a waste of time

Zachriel has been much more polite & helpful then was probably warranted by your intial whine / rant.

 

[God]

Originally posted by gozpel


Well, I suppose you play on chieftain level and have little or no experience playing on harder levels? First off, on deity the other civs get like 8 troops, 2 settlers? and 2 workers...and when you built your first warrior they have 2 cities. And when you have 8 troops, they will have 20 and so on.
So warmongering isn't a good idea before you have some stuff to bacj it up with. To this you can lay the tech race, you lag behind immidiately...and the chance to buy techs are limited, because some aggro civ will always demand your last gold...or else.

So what pipe have you been smoking Zachriel?

Zachriel is a good player. He beat diety on GOTM 7. He even set up a story for it on his webpage .

Nice job Zach, BTW.

When another civ wants your iron or whatever, they simply say "Gimme iron!", why can't they first try to make a trade? So many times they just demand, when they easily could pay a few golds/turn...instead of peace I always end up in war, before I'm prepared.

Why should the AI bother to negotiate with you if they know that they are more powerful, and have caught you unaware? They have nothing to lose.

Ah well, sometimes these things are too much. It usually take quite a few turns before you notice that your pangea map really is just one of a few continents, and playing on deity I want at least the chance to get the kind of worldmap and terrain I select.
Ive been restarting for weeks now and can't seem to get what I want:/

Umm...if you're going to be that fussy there's no point in playing because you probably never come across the perfect world. When I select pangaea I sometimes get continents, but after 20 or so tries I get a really nice pangea map.

Are you sure you checked pangea and not continents?