Some questions about the late game (0.33)

rezaf

Warlord
Joined
Dec 3, 2003
Messages
179
Initially, I was going to wait for 0.34's release before trying FFH again (I tried it a long time ago, at least pre BtS) but I had this week off and thus some surplus time, so I gave 0.33 w/ FF a go.

I have some questions about late game FFH. (bear in mind that I'm a novice FFH player)
In vanilla CIV/BtS, I'm often a defensive player, I never start wars and try to sort of get along with everybody. Of course, this doesn't always work out, especially on higher difficulties, but sometimes it does.
I exploit the opportunity if the AI choses to attack me by pulling off Israel-style defensive wars that leave me with more territory/cities than I had before, but I will often try to get a peace treaty once the war begins to bore me (and/or I've gotten an edge that I fear I may not be able to maintain in the long run).
Most victoties of vanilla games for me are by winning the the space race (sometimes by a tiny margin) or a cultural victory.

So ... why is it that there are no viable "turtle" victory types in FFH?

Killing all rivals is the most obvious "agressive" victory, sure, but in FFH, I think none is actually achievable unless you bully everybody else.

In my last game, I basically ran out of things to do (research) by turn 400 or something, and I found none of the mods victory conditions were achievable for me. There were five civs left, three of which were my vassals. Then there was another good civ (I was good too) I had been on friendly terms with for ages and their single vassal.

Cultural victory I found way too hard to pull off. I had concentrated all wonders I built (and I built about 70% of all wonders available to me) in three cities and had two or three bards through the course of the game which I used to create great works in them. When the "100 turns left" counter appeared, I had one city high in the thirty thousands and two in the mid twenties. After running 50% culture since 200 turns and spending almost half of the time producing culture in those cities manually, too.
Maybe I would have done it just in time, but it would also have meant pressing "next turn" a hundred times with little else to do, which isn't that much fun, even for a turtling player.
[Not sure what to do about it, really. Maybe culture production could be slightly balanced? Maybe I missed a important culture-producing mechanic in FFH?]

I had founded all of the religions and spread my state religion to each city on the map without ever promoting another religion actively. However, natural spread left me at ~60% only.
[I think at least this victory type should take all religions you founded under consideration to make it somewhat more achievable.
I know about Inquisition, but can you even cast that on cities you don't own?]

I lacked a metric ton of mana types (and you need all of them to build the tower of mastery), even after I had cast the ritual which brings more mana nodes to the map. The AI is reluctant to trade away mana, and it is terrible at picking useful nodes to build. Even if I had just captured every city near one of the nodes, it would've done me no good, since appearently you cannot re-flag nodes to a type you need once they have been designated.
[I really think there should be a cleansing ritual to re-focus a mana node. Maybe there is, and I just missed it?
Alternatively/additionally, maybe there should be a very expensive building (probably a national wonder) that produces the mana types one of the towers needs (or at least any single mana type)?]

Domination victory, iirc, requires both a percentage of population and a percentage of land controlled, so of course it's another victory type only achievable by aggressive means.
[This behaviour is by design ;)]

The final victory type, that five step altar wonder, is way too hard to produce, because it relies on prophets only and getting a lot of prophets to spawn is no easy task, especially since it gets harder for cities to produce great people the more they already have produced. I guess I could've "soft-cheated" by reloading if a great sage or something spawned instead of the prophet I needed, but that itsn't really something I like to do (and I'm not sure if it'd even work).

So, anybody else missing a defensive victory type?
Or, alternatively, am I simply overlooking some important game mechanics native to FFH that will make some of the victory types more easy to achieve?

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to check how my download of 0.35 is going...
:)
_____
rezaf
 
Culture
for getting more culture you can try to adpot and spread Octopus Overlords (+3 base culture for temples) and any other religion which will enable the temples that give +20% culture each. Also you can switch to Guilds and have unlimited bards specialists.


ToM
With Metamagic II you can switch back a mana node to colorless mana, and your vassals will give you their palace mana.
The Tower of Necromancy gives a death mana for free.
Each holy city gives a mana.

Altar
You could try to switch to the civic which gives unlimited priests.

the others
never achieved one :)
 
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to check how my download of 0.35 is going...

Awww I want .35 too. Also, the tower of mastery is the best turtle victory your only need about 5 cities on average to build it and a ai will sometimes trade off its mana for resources that you have 20 of.
 
Awww I want .35 too. Also, the tower of mastery is the best turtle victory your only need about 5 cities on average to build it and a ai will sometimes trade off its mana for resources that you have 20 of.

Heh, it's 0.34 of course. :lol:

Edit: What are the five cities for if mana is a non-issue? Are the towers national wonders?
_____
rezaf
 
Towers are national wonders.

There are quite a few ways to get Mana... If you are going to use Nodes at some point, make sure one of them is Metamagic. With it, you can change what types of mana your nodes are putting out, allowing you to swap around between each one of the Towers you are building. :D

You can also start a small empire overseas and allow them independence at the cost of becoming a vassal to you / giving you the Mana that their palace provides.
 
Ok, I will definately pick Metamagic in my next game. Actually, I think I did in my last one, too, but I kinda got overwhelmed by all the different mana types available to adepts and just picked semi-randomly.

Actually, that's my main gripe with FFH as it is now, it's overwhelming.
At one point, I had like twenty techs available simulataneously for research - creating a few "chokepoints" in the tech tree could've done wonders here, I think. Then again, it definately offers a really open playing field for advanced players who can focus on whatever they want without being forced through a chokepoint. Maybe a better advisor? Anyway, it's not really a serious issue.

You can also start a small empire overseas and allow them independence at the cost of becoming a vassal to you / giving you the Mana that their palace provides.

How do you do that?
_____
rezaf
 
Click on the house on the toolbar at the top of the screen while you are playing, it'll bring up your Domestic Advisor. Very useful if you want some info on your cities.

Anyways! If there is a fist icon near the Exit button in the menu, click it. It'll give you a list of options on what you can do, typically this involves liberating a city or gifting it to someone else or giving independence to so and so cluster of cities on another continent. Typically, has to be minimum two cities that are connected with one another. Dunno much about specifics, but it shouldn't take more than the two cities being fairly close to one another.

And the games got a steep learning curve, yeah. :D
 
Well the altar victory becomes extremely easy with the theocracy civic - get the +100% GPP national wonder in your biggest city and the +50% GPP civic, turn every single specialist into a priest, and churn out lots of great prophets (if you have some wonders that generate GPP in said city, it won't be 100% prophets, but should be pretty close with enough priests).

Cultural isn't quite as quick, but also doable; just get all the culture enhancing civics, you can more than double your culture with them, along with as many different religions + temples as you can per city. Make sure to adopt caste system for limitless bards and extra +culture per specialist, then make every single specialist in your top 3 cities a bard, and you can end up rushing to legendary culture pretty quickly. It also doesn't hurt to switch your production in those 3 cities to culture, or to stop research and up the culture slider as close to 100% as you can, but these are small bonuses on top of the incredible +culture a bunch of bards can produce. Also keep in mind you can swap the perfect lyre (+100% culture world wonder) between cities by having a unit pick it up.
 
On cultural victory (which might be the hardest one to aceive on an avaerage map save for some civs like sidar which have it by far the easiest and can aim for that one easily even without much knowledge of were you get lots of culture. Their shades alone will do solidly enough...):

You really have to plan that one well ahead (best whould be from start of the game. But by turn 100 at the latest you should know you aim for it. Otherwise you will experience what you did in the game you described).

Most important for that one are that you join the overcouncil early (only good or neutral civs can do that after they have researched honor by adopting the overcouncil civic) then make sure that the liberty-resolution is passed (be warned though to prepare for serious! happiness issues should you get into a lot of wars. And any offensive wars should be either conducted very fast of be a big no-no.)
That forces everyone in the council to adopt liberty (a civic usually only available much later into the game at mercantilism.)
That civic gives you a whopping +100% on your cultural output across your empire + the ability to run unlimited bards and as icing gives a free specialist for each city.
(thats aceivable around turn 150 even at emperor / immortal if you really aim for it and get quite lucky with your game... You needn't even get to honor first. Just get someone else to found the empyrean and trade honor + join the overcouncil. But be the second one if you can, so you can be sure you are beeing elected head councilor for at least one season so you can propose liberty. After that it doesn't matter anymore since AI usually doesn't topple passed resolutions + you always have your vote...).
The drawback is that you miss out on some very good other civics with regards to hapiness mainly.

Then try to fetch the perfect lyre wonder/item from Drama tech which gives another whopping +100% Culture + a few base culture (4 i belive) in the city it is build.
That thing can also be picked up and dropped in other cities. (which is greath when bringing up new cities to fat-cross influence as well.) Just pump the culture of one city so you reach an ammount were going legendary is easy, then focus on the next city. Until you have 3.
One drawback though: That wonder is quite an expensive one. Not much in the game is more expensive than the lyre so plan for some time (good thing about that: AI tends to avoid it for some time usually so you should be able to fetch it if you really want.).

Also each temple adds another 20% so getting many religions and spreding them to you 3 legendary wannabes really helps (5 temples each makes for another 100%. No need to found them. Just trade for the techs and spread liberaly). You can insta-build the temples of your state religion by building priests (priesthood needed for that.). But your 3 Legendary cities should be able to build those temples on their own usually. Only that priest-spread is automatic. :)

Then there are some other wonders like the grand menagerie and the theatre of dreams which allso add 20% each i belive (the theatre also will improve the cultural output of all bards a bit each. So worthwhile to get if you know early you are going for that victory.)

Then there is the caste-system civic (available with taxation) which adds a +2 to each specialist and the hall of kings wonder (available at feudalism) which adds +2 to each specialist. (so together with the theatre of dreams it makes for a whopping 9 Culture from each and every bard you have. Base. And a free one from liberty as well). If you are utterly diehard you could also adopt foreign trade (for another +20% available at trade) but usually Guardian of Nature (if you run Fellowship of Leaves) or agriculture civics are more interesting usually (because these allow for running a lot of additional specialists which nets better and is better for the rest of your empire as well)

Then there is a spell which helps (hope, spirit 2 for +4 culture base +1 happiness also available to honor guards a mounted gardsman UU available at feudalism for running the aristocracy civic. Even if you don't have spirit-mana. This spell also grants courage to all units built or passing by in the city its active. :))

And with the bonus of about 300% (if you can really grab / conqer all those.) and just 5 Bard Specialists (much more are possible usually. 10 in 3 supercities is doable if you only go for cultural, which also produce a neat ammount of greath bards for greath works. :)) in each you whould have base culture of about 150 cultural output a turn alone from this (and the +3 from OO temple and some other smaller cultural sources from base buildings which i did conveniently include) (100 in the cities without the lyre).
Add wonders, buildings, economy--->culture and greath works into the mix, and its not all that hard anymore to reach 50000 per city early enough.

And if you really want to get the last bit of culture milked out of your empire you can also produce desciples (tier 1 religious units which are buildable at the base religious tech after building their respective temples for 60 hammers.) which sacrifice for "mini greath-works worth 20 culture each"
(Beware though that ashen veil-desciples can't do it. CoE has no divine Units in the first place so nothing from that religion as well...). Quite tendious micro but you can get quite some if your empire is big.





On the altar:

That in fact is one of the easiest builder victories available. Spaceship in vanilla should be by far harder. An Altar victory in the timeframe of Turn 300- Turn 400 should be no big problem if! you are! determined (and its also the easiest one to gain no matter the situation if you decide later on which victory you pursue.). Also the farther you get the easier it becomes and the more benefits you reap. Only the very start is rather hard.

First, and that is mandatory, you can't be evil if you want to build the altar (its something akin to human ascension to godhood. The evil guys don't have such "high and pure" goals.).

Also the higher levels of the Altar make the priest-specialists you need to run anyways to get enough greath Prophets really worthwhile (+ add lots of other neat benefits to the rest of your empire which are worth a wonder each in their own right.)

From Level 3 on each priest produces 2 Hammers (so akin to an engineer-specialist), from Level 5 (which is even rather early and on a usefuly place with fanaticism) on each priest produces a whopping 3 hammers. Also the higher levels of the altar offer priest-slots on their own allowing for an even faster production of priests. The farther you get, the easier the going will become.

Because of that its good to stockpile some prophets first (the first 2 until you get your 3rd might be a good idea. Especially if you go with Empyrean Religion since then it might be worthwhile to build the altar in the holy city of that religion. Not reccomended in competative multiplayer though.).

It really works for any nonevil civ (and you can switch alignments if you play an evil civ by adopting a good or neutral-good religion early to midgame rather easily. For a late switch its even easier usually.) but best it works for Civs with a religious focus (so any spiritual leader will do fine, as will philosophical ones.) most notably Malakim and Elhoim (Elhoim should work best of them all, especially with Einon Logos as your leader) as well as the Elves and Dwarves. Sidar oddly also work out nicely even though they explicitly focus on nonpriest-specialists with their specials.

The key here is that instead of getting many religions by yourselves you should focus on one (you should try to research / found that one by yourselves or grab the holy city if you can) and go down the line of needed techs fast at least until priesthood. (Best for that seem either Runes of Kilmorph. Octopus Overlords or Order with Fol and Empyrean also possible but a bit less gainful.)
Getting other religious techs later by trade or short cheap research might still be worthwhile but you shouldn't invest to hard in them.

You might want to get your first 3 prophets as early as possible. The earlier, the easier / faster the victory will be. So your first aim should be mysticism (after some base economic techs perhaps, like education. But going for mysticism first might also pay off, hard decision. I still usually go with education first.) so you can run priests as early as you can. (One sage for an academy might still be worthwhile. So don't just build a pagan temple, but an elder council as well but the pagan temple should be first. And run a sage + a priest until you get your first greath person which will be much faster that well. If thats a priest you get really lucky and can continue to run both. If you got a sage, get that academy and singlemindedly focus on priests from that point on. Which will delay the whole thing a bit.) Running pacifism (from the time you get your first temple / council up) until you have your second greath person might also be worthwhile (after which a switch to religion usually is better. Otherwise you will be crushed by maintenance or hapiness issues.)

If you start the game as either evil or good and are extremely lucky (or if you explore a dungeon and get extremely lucky) you might get a greath prophet or even 2 early in the game (you will need to have about 100 Gold handy so huts with gold or running Gold a few turns might really be worthwhile if you are determined to go for the Altar early.).
Should you get one don't waste him on your religion at that point (if you get 2 you are rather safe anyways and might go down the route of needed techs even faster ignoring some other techs you might otherwise want.). It might be tempting and the research-time might be long but you'll regret it later.
Then go for your religion if you wan't to go with OO, RoK or FoL. (You will also get a very neat Tier 2-unit for each of the religions) Build the temple for an additional priest-slot and run it (+ spread your religion to other cities if available and start to run priests there as well).

Now you face some hard choices (non of them strictly bad, all of them depending on in-game circumstances). Either you try to get trade to fetch some techs from other civs, or you try to get philosophy, then priesthood, getting way of the wicked for slavery might be worthwile even before priesthood (don't bother with mind stapling or arete yet. hidden paths might be worthwhile a bit earlier than those 2 but usually also only after! priesthood / trade. If you go with one of the later religions, especially in case of the empyrean trade might be the way better choice now.).

Depending on the number of prophets you have allready about the time you get philosphy you can do different highly interesting things with them. If you have 3 you might consider to spend one now either on founding the shrine or on bulbing priesthood or just firing the Altar 3 right away.
Founding the shrine gives some neat gold, mana (which can be highly interesting in its own right), bulbing priesthood gives some serious military bang (this is especially viable if you run OO, Early Cultists are a terrible thing to behold and are borderline impossible to counter that early on maps with some water / vs. costal cities. We are talking ~Turn 120-150 here. All on higher difficulties. Priest of Leaves with their kick-ass tigers also pack quite a punch for that part of the game). getting altar 3 sets you on the safe side and makes all your priests better + offers an additional priest slot for getting more GP + gives empire wide hapiness and makes all desciples build there into outof the box killing-machines.
Priesthood is the single most hefty bump in your power during such a game relative (especially if you run one of the 3 earlier religions) to the rest of the world. So after getting it you might want to stray abit to other thigs (like getting the national epic in your prime-priest city for double the GP, getting some other religions for additional temples / priest slots or some important economic techs.)

At that point in the game it should be no big problem anymore to get some greath priests over time more or less reliably.

Then its time to go into overdrive.

First you research religious law (in case of you running empyrean now comes your big moment with Chalid a one man army unmatched elsewere. Depending on situation in game you might also want to speed that one up with a bulb... You should be able to usually.).
That gives you Theocracy. The single most important civic for that strategy. it allows you to run unlimited priest specialists (i guess no explanation needed why this is important?) as well as +2 XP for all units build in a city with state-religion.
That means together with apprenticeship or another source of free xp (like a command post or the form of the titan) the desciple-units built in your altar city now start with 10 XP out of the Box. Thats 3 Levelups. Which means lots of diversity with your priests.
Also if you run order you get basilicas now. Neat building for huge empires. And social order civic. Few upkeep and hapiness issues from now on. (so here is the big payoff for the later religions.)
And last but not least a wonder which gives +1 Happiness for your continent if you can spare the hammers or have marble hooked up.

Now you should have your 4th GP (or the 5th if you got really lucky so you could spare one for other things) which will up the Altar another time giving all units visiting! it blessed promotion (+1 holy strength until next battle.) can be revisited after blessed is "lost".

If you have a spare non-greath prophet greath person (which is rather likely at that point) you might want to start your first golden age now (or second if you did manage to build the bone-palace or third if you did both of that and got an event fitting to your religion.).

Now you should go for fanaticism (the requirement for the most important altar, the 5th one. You should have the greath prophet before you reach fanaticism usually.). That improves all your priests to 3 hammers (as good as a Guild of Hammers-boosted engineer alone. And Guild of Hammers comes later usually. As comes guilds civic which whould allow for unlimited engineers.) + 1 Gold + 3 Priest GPP each (which should be more interesting to you now than a mine on grassland-hill / plains-hill) + up to 4 for culture from civics (caste system which might be very! worthwhile thanks to the resarch now. Also adds some research per priest as does the scolarship civic which you will get later on.) / wonders (hall of the kings, might also be viable) each + an additional happiness for your empire + another 2 XP (now giving +10 from the altar alone)

Also fanaticism offers a kickass unit for OO, Order and RoK (crusaders, stygean guards, paramanders. All 3 of them can use weapons i belive. So hook up that iron if you can. Paramanders need copper though i belive, the others need any metal.) which is solid Tier 3 with the enhancements desciples get now (+ they got improved further by your priests unless you run OO which has its own merits). No matter which Religion you do (except CoE or Veil of course.) + as well as some civ-heroes for some of the civs which might do good with the altar-strategy.

Now you might do whatever you want and see fit for 50 - 100 Turns (if you are neutral you might want to go for Druids, High-Priests, Paladins and Eidolons otherwise. Eidolons require you to be evil though so some switching at a later point might be in order). Your Economy and Power should be a force hard to match. So anything you might want you should be able to get.

Don't build the 6th altar yet though (gained at righteousness which also gives paladins so you might want it early if you run order.). Unless you like trouble. Its benefits are not that improtant anyways so it can wait (with a greath prophet in waiting to build it prior to the construction of the final altar.).

Then you should make your move to wrap up the game (as you see fit, won't last long until you get there). You have to get to omniscience now. (neutrals have a small edge here since they want commune with nature anyways for druids.) First you grab a sphere-tech or 2 (KotE should have been researched a long time ago, some adepts are allways worthwhile.). Divination should be one of those. Then go to sorcery (if you have gained another sage since the start of the game you should keep it for the turn you research sorcery). Bulb Arcane Lore with a Sage (which usually nets you another sage (unless you took a looong time or Amurites / Sheaim are in the game and did well too) which you can instantly use to bulb a small part of pass through the AEther.) then best go for pass through the Aether (unless you went mage heavy. Which is also possible by spreading the Ashen Veil to your altar-city which nets you insta-mages on building upgraded from savants. Then you might be more interested in Strength of Will) and build the nexus (which will help you in the ensuing endgame war for you beeing so daring to try achive godhood. The evil ones won't like that... ;)). Then build the tower of divination (you can very well pre-build that one in anticipation of researching the techs pre omniscience.), you'll need Sun, Mind, Spirit and Law Mana for that (2-3 of those usually are available from shrines + palace allready so not many nodes needed.), use it to bulb omniscience. Then build the 6th Altar and then start the final one.
Now that final thing costs 4000 Hammers which sounds like a real big lot. But! you likely won't need anything else much from sorcery on you can prepare and collect some money + a greath engineer or 2 (one can be obtained from machinery i belive). After getting omniscience you should switch to 100% Gold / 0% sience or something like that. After some 20 - 30 Turns the game should be yours. And should the other civs bother you, you should be able to utilize your army of high-powered desciples + nexus or archmages to greath effect (such games are also fun, sorts of, even though those units eat through superstacks like a lumbermill eats wood.)

The agnostic grigori were really good at that condition once but that got removed even though the altar is named after a group of people the grigori harbor (the luonnotar which is a grigori druid UU now.).
That might change again though (or the whole mechanics might be changed, there is some discussion going on currently about that toppic)
Currently though the Grigori have it the hardest aceive it. But still far from impossible thanks to their worldspell (+ the ritual gained at the tech needed for the final altar). They also get the least incentive since they profit the least from the altars and the prerequisite techs that are needed for the various stages of the altar.
PS: The illians may have the same problem i guess without the backstory part. But i haven't played them yet so i can't comment from experience there...


If you do it later on to wrap up a game, just switch to theocracy and run all out priests. Should be enough to get the measly 6 prophets you need in under 100 turns in a lategame-empire usually, or much faster with the right leaders + buildings + civics. (You don't get much of the benefits then but don't need such a focused strategy as well. :))



On tower-victory:


The tower victory is by far the easiest to explain. (Works best with civs which focus on arcane line of course or offer lots of synergy with it :).):

"Just" get some base mana (from uniqe features, shrines, palace, vasalls, colonies, civs you subdued into captiualtion or via trade, other sources?) sorcery and some base nodes (2 if you are really lucky and the situation permits, 3 should do relatively safely).

In that strategy its very worthwhile to found all religions you can fetch and don't have the mana easily from other sources (best focus on those which complete a set of 1 base prerequisite mana for each of the towers first, then try to get another set or one complete tower.)

Then after getting sorcery bulb arcane lore (with a sage, get another one for free, you should be guaranteed that one if you are Sheiam or Amurites) while get a metamagic node up and some mages promoted to Metamagic 2 (+ some spare adepts with Metamagic 1, can still promote later if needed). 5 Metamagic 2+ casters should suffice but 15 have their merits as well if you go mage-heavy empire switching those nodes as you see fit at the blink of an eye, Then reset those nodes and build the towers. Grab the tower of divination as early as you can after getting arcane lore. Slingshot to Strength of Will and wreak some havok with your Archmages + Liches (don't forget to optimize your mana before upgrading your adepts to mages to archmages.)
Then if you are ready (better safe some gold / engineers beforehand) start the 4000 hammer (dé ja vû? ;)) Tower of Mastery and win the game (you just need the towers build not all the mana.)

Thats usually the fastest one to wrap up a late game you are bored with if! you have 3 nodes handy and didn't 'waste' all 3 before getting sorcery for metamagic (not always the case) are powerful enough (also not always the case in higher difficulties).

But as a strategy in itself its less stable and offers much less on its own in comparison to the altar. Which offers a complete Strategy for a game. Also ToM has the drawback that all civs will declare war on you if you start to build it, not just the evil ones. (no one likes wannabe world-dominators. ;))




So you got solid victory conditions right here for all tastes of builders:

A challenge which has to be well planned and executed from the start and doesn't support or win on itself in case of cultural (which is a good one for diplo and peace-heavy mass-hugger 'we are all friends' games. And the single best one there. Since utterly foolproof if you get the diplo set up right),

a game encompassing strategy / minigame in case of altar (evil ones excluded. Sorry... Those have another "goal". Armageddon. Also fun. For them at least. Mostly... Read more in the strategy-and tips forum.),

and one to wrap up games you are bored with fast in case of ToM (shouldn't last more than about 50 turns from decision to execution).

Religious can! also be a builder game but only works on smaller maps with a lot of luck in my experience (and by that i mean my experience with conditions were it whould be possible, not actual wins).
You can use inquisition in foreign cities as well. But they must share your State-religion for you to be allowed to. And you need open borders of course. ;) (Bribing them might work though if your relations with them are decent. But you better hurry. Lest them switch back.)
Usually its a wormonger condition though bash the nonbelivers into oblivion, then purge all the others.
If you whould coun't all religions you founded and have a shrine for it whould become way to easy. Its borderline a cakewalk to found + conquer about 5 if you want it... (and thats in immortal with certain civs.) founding 7 all by yourselves is possible if quite unlikely.


I personally rarely if ever end a game in conquest (save for the odd barbs take over game.) or seldom if a bit more often in domination, at least on smaller maps (the last place though is adamantly reserved for religious. Only have one there and it was my fastest ever. On a duel map me "vs." Grigori. :p wanted to see the movie for religious... ;)).
Most of my games (since i like bigger maps standart +, usually large) end in ToM, Altar or Cultural (most pre Turn 500, vast majority around Turn 400 normal speed.).
And its still a lot of fun. So the builder- and turtle-victories can't be all that bad.
 
Well, you should never expect a victory on your first game of anything ;)

The joy of FfH is that it is overwhelming. There is so much to do and learn that you'll HAVE to come back to try out something different the next time. And now that you have had a chance to learn what the victory types are, you can start choosing one to aim for earlier in life.

I do think I agree that Cultural victories are a bit hard to achieve. But you'll find that it is only true for certain civs, while others almost have to try NOT to get cultural victories (I've had the AI get a culture victory on me while I wasn't halfway through the tech tree before)
 
Whoa, thanks for the excessive explanations Blackmantle.
I have to read this again later to fully grasp all the subtleties.

However, I still think it's kinda sad you are basically forced down a certain path (i.e. have to plan your game out and at least mostly stick to the plan) to even stand a chance to achieve that type of victory.
With the knowledge of being able to "clear" nodes with Metamagic and that giving you the ability to be "gamey" by getting rid of mana types after having built the according tower without losing it, it definately makes that type of victory rather easy to get.
It's definately a rather straight forward option for human players.

BUT, I highly doubt the AI is able to pull off such strategy, though, so it comes with it's own host of problems.
Actually, I think the AI is completely unable to pull off ANY type of victory.
The player can be removed from the game (making it end for him), and maybe, and that's a big MAYBE, a AI might theoretically get lucky afterwards and be able to pull off a sole-survivor or at least a domination victory. But it's not likely.

The cultural victory obviously involves far too many loops you're forced to jump through before being able to achieve it. Again, just barely doable for a human player, but the AI would hardly ever be able to pull it off.

The five-piece-tower thingy might be a possibility according to your descriptions, but again, it's far too many loops to jump through and it requires too much planning ahead. Not saying it can't be done, but the AI will never be able to pull it off.

In vanilla, I often lost games (in higher difficulties) because some AI player got culturally dominant and my cities began flipping to him and he approached culture victory. I lost games to AIs successfully racing to the spaceship before me. And of course I lost games because I was unable to contest military supremacy and a AI (or a combination of several AIs) would either beat me outright or achieve domination.

In FFH, right now, I see being wiped by a strong AI I'm unable to contest on the battlefield as the only option. The AI will never go for any victory type beyond that because it's simply not able to.

I also think it's bad for the human player. Planning ahead like described is fair and well, but it should, in my eyes, really only be required if you were playing at high difficulties and/or were aiming for a high score (read: high efficiency).
Every victory type should be an available option for a human player on ... say Warlord difficulty at least.

That said, what I think is really cool is how much difference there is between the civilizations. I mean, it's clear from the start that there are a lot of distinct features, but just how diverse they are is really a boon. I mean, in that game I described in the OP, I was those barbarian type dudes that have the War Machine as their hero. Probably not the race of choice if you want to go for a peaceful victory type. :rolleyes:
In my defense, I wan't aiming for one, it was more of a showcase game in which I tried different things out.

Edit: Oh, and about religious victory, I agree having all religions you founded add up might make things rather easy IF you aim for it to happen but the way it is, it's way too hard.
Having your religion in almost every city on the map (say >95%) and having your religion being the state religion of every other player should really be sufficient to win.
Being forced to micromanage priests to purge other religions (that might also have been founded by you) adds an additional layer of annoying micromanagement (after being forced to send disciples everywhere to spread your religion everywhere). Maybe an easy workaround would be creating a "Jihad" world project for each religion that would make it the predominant religion in every city in which it was present along with other religions (effectively purging the others).
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rezaf
 
well I kinda agree that cultural victory seems very very hard to achieve in FFH.

oh, and that metamagic II trick to the ToM victory? that should be addressed by the team, it's something cheat-ish that the AI will never ever be able to cope with :lol:
 
However, I still think it's kinda sad you are basically forced down a certain path (i.e. have to plan your game out and at least mostly stick to the plan) to even stand a chance to achieve that type of victory.
BUT, I highly doubt the AI is able to pull off such strategy, though, so it comes with it's own host of problems.
Actually, I think the AI is completely unable to pull off ANY type of victory.
Here's how I look at it. If you are concerned with the meta-game concept of victory, then you should be okay with needing to prepare and follow a strategy starting early on, just after you explore. [edit: After, of course, you are familiar with what the victory conditions actually are.] If you, like I usually do, just sort of meander around and meet what challenges develop and enjoy the story that emerges from that, you should be willing to declare victory on your own terms, especially if you play on larger maps with entrenched ai empires. In this case you can see it as more of a simulation than a game.

Regarding the ais, it would be nice if they were better players, even if they understood all the victory conditions well. Note that before BtS, ais would only ever win with spaceship or maybe domiation there as well. In Civ, from a game perspective, the ai players are not opponents, but obstacles. The other civs aren't trying to win, just trying to prevent you from winning. It's a slightly different type of challenge, and eliminates some tension that comes from the race against ais, but I'm content with it so long as they are suitible obstacles and at least provide suitible competition for resources and enemies in war.
 
Just throwing it out there that either removing Mithril as a requirement for most late game units, or just doing that for the AI only, would help a lot there, as most AI's do not and will not get Mithril and thus will never be able to build those units.
 
@ rezaf: I guess you get it a bit wrong here. Both the altar and the ToM work more or less fine if you want to wrap up a game even without planning for them beforehand (Its just that the altar offers so much incentives and rewards that playing around them really pays off for religiously-oriented non-evil civs.)

Also in long games the Ai is capable of starting the final altar. Had that in more than one game of vanilla FFH (0.23. i belive). Its not that hard since even the AI tends to have one or 2 GP farms and it will build + be able to utilize the altar if they are remotely religiously inclined. Superstacks of high-priests and holy warriors (from fanaticism) will be seen. Especially now that the AI gets free xp from higher difficulties anyways. With an Level 3+ Altar Level 5 Units on build are doable on build on immortal / deity. Those are not easy to cope with
But that does require the right tech-path so not all AIs have it rather easy to go that route, hence you see it rather seldom until lategame from AIs Turn 350+.

ToM indeed is very very unlikely to be gained by AI (but i bet its far from impossible to teach since the routine is not that hard and it has its benefits to go down that route for the arcane-focused civs anyways, which are most likely to acheive that victory.) and right now virtually requires vasalls on and an AI going all out vasalizing most of the world. (+ the auto-war sure doesn't help them. I don't know though if AI vassals do get robbed of their resources by their sovereign.)


Cultural does indeed need planning beforehand and can only be accomplished by AI if they join the overcouncil and get liberty early + play a culture-focused civ like the balseraps. But its not impossible. It will last very very long though. Even on very high difficulties...
But honestly, thats not a bit different for vanilla (even for players going cultural in vanilla required dedicated strategies. Might be different in BtS. Haven't played that even remotely enough to know.)

Overall i agree that the AI not aiming for victory beeing one of the biggest problems for them (i also wrote a rather extensive post about that issue in the "feedback on AI issues" thread allready and how a base / the procedures for achiving the victories could be done.).

But! you have to know that FFH2 is still in end-beta.
Only when Ice-phase is finished will it be 'done'.
Large scale AI-tinkering will begin in Ice-phase according to the team (because until the real end of shadow-phase huge new features will! be added and existing ones will be changed/axed. Might! happen to the Altar for example).

So it deosn't make much sense to tinker with the AI (or all the documentation / civelopedia for that matter) if that is just redundant work soon better spend elsewhere.

When Ice comes presumably about the end of this year and scenarioes are started you can be sure that the victories will be some kind of a focus. Because that often is what scenarioes are about. And if the AI has no way of winning a scenario that whould sort of suck.

So best in that regard is: Wait and see + test the current versions + give feedback on existing features + the things the Team asks for, so the team can make the machanics as good as possible. The AI will! be thought later on... (Better prepare for when it gets a clue on how to play decently. It will kick your butt on higher difficulties if it does.)
 
I think Nikis-Knight hit the nail right on its head with his post. in Civ the AIs are not opponents, just obstacles. which SUCKS! ( imho ) . sometimes you can clearly see that they don't care about winning, they just want to keep the player from winning. it looks wierd and it's pretty annoying and frustrating if you ask me ;)
 
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