Some remarks on The Mongols

[4CV]

In the last few days I've set up a small game with three nations that I've rarely played actively, and I've chosen the Mongols first.
Their warfare abilities seem to be exceptionally good:

- All Skirmisher units have more movement points (5), plus double attack and the ability to move afterwards if there are any points left.
- The Khan is not only a Great General with additional "pilum" promotion (10 damage points at the beginning of each turn), but also a great medic.
- Mongolian units are stronger against city-state troops.
- When tributing city-states, in addition to the gold the Mongols receive 20% of the sum in all other yields!

That should be very powerful when used correctly. In fact, it was impressive how strong even small battle groups of three to four skirmishers can be against any target. If you add a Khan with his special abilities to the mix, which appears quite soon through diligent attacking, "Mongol Terror" absolutely deserves its name.
Ok, Korea as opponent wasn't a good choice on a map without water, but Poland didn't stand a chance either.
After about 170 turns, it was game over.

But if you look at the statistics of the AI games, the result looks completely different: The Mongols find themselves near the bottom of the table! How is that possible?
Using the ctrl-shift-L (iirc) key combination and an early save, I ran the game again as "AI alone".

Result: In the end (>T 350!) the Mongols dominated here too. But it was a very long and very rocky road.

Why? For me, two main reasons:

1. the Mongols did not use skirmishers at all! Their absolute best early weapon, imho... Instead, they used their numerous horses as horsemen, without any advantage.
(Later they had two or three "heavy skirmishers", but those stood uselessly as garrisons in cities.)

2. City-states were allied at great expense instead of having to pay the excellent tributes. Never a single angry CS...

There were other problems as well, but these may affect all AIs, not just the Mongols.
- Khans were practically not used.
- Settlers were accompanied by spears, but being afraid of even single barbarian hand axes, they made aimless evasive movements for many turns.
...

My conclusion: In their current state The Mongols are a great pleasure for the player, but practically worthless as AI.


Unfortunately I forgot where to find the other short cuts (for example to switch to other civilizations in the game) Maybe someone can tell me? Thank you

 

[hokath]

Seems the trait ability isnt hooking up properly to the unit production AI then. Will need some DLL dev to look at.

The main shortcuts are Ctrl+shift+P for change player and Ctrl+shift+O for global observer.

 

[redrum68]

Well one thing that could help some is defining Genghis as 9-10 on mobile attribute in LeaderFlavorSweeps.sql. right now he just gets the default 7 from conqueror personality. But yeah I'm guessing because it isn't a UU, the AI is prioritizing producing them enough.

 

[4CV]

Seems the trait ability isnt hooking up properly to the unit production AI then. Will need some DLL dev to look at.

The main shortcuts are Ctrl+shift+P for change player and Ctrl+shift+O for global observer.

I assume the devs are busy working on more important projects at the moment... Thanks for the shortcuts!

 

[4CV]

Well one thing that could help some is defining Genghis as 9-10 on mobile attribute in LeaderFlavorSweeps.sql. right now he just gets the default 7 from conqueror personality. But yeah I'm guessing because it isn't a UU, the AI is prioritizing producing them enough.

Where could I find that LeaderFlavorSweeps.sql? Will changes apply in a running game? Or at least savegames be compatibel?

 

[jarcast2]

Where could I find that LeaderFlavorSweeps.sql? Will changes apply in a running game? Or at least savegames be compatibel?

The leader flavors are here: MODS\(2) Vox Populi\Database Changes\AI\

The steps are: 1) save and close your current game; 2) make your changes to sql; 3) reload and continue game, the changes are savegame compatible and will apply.

 

[4CV]

The leader flavors are here: MODS\(2) Vox Populi\Database Changes\AI\

The steps are: 1) save and close your current game; 2) make your changes to sql; 3) reload and continue game, the changes are savegame compatible and will apply.

UPDATE Leader_Flavors SET Flavor = 10 WHERE FlavorType = 'FLAVOR_MILITARY_TRAINING' AND LeaderType = 'LEADER_GENGHIS_KHAN'; -- 8, primary: dom
UPDATE Leader_Flavors SET Flavor = 10 WHERE FlavorType = 'FLAVOR_OFFENSE' AND LeaderType = 'LEADER_GENGHIS_KHAN'; -- 8, primary: dom
UPDATE Leader_Flavors SET Flavor = 10 WHERE FlavorType = 'FLAVOR_NUKE' AND LeaderType = 'LEADER_GENGHIS_KHAN'; -- 9, primary: dom
UPDATE Leader_Flavors SET Flavor = 10 WHERE FlavorType = 'FLAVOR_USE_NUKE' AND LeaderType = 'LEADER_GENGHIS_KHAN'; -- 9, primary: dom
UPDATE Leader_Flavors SET Flavor = 7 WHERE FlavorType = 'FLAVOR_TILE_IMPROVEMENT' AND LeaderType = 'LEADER_GENGHIS_KHAN'; -- 3, UB

These are the lines I found... most are already set to 10 (10=max ?) Skirmishers are not here...

Thanks anyway...

 

[redrum68]

UPDATE Leader_Flavors SET Flavor = 10 WHERE FlavorType = 'FLAVOR_MILITARY_TRAINING' AND LeaderType = 'LEADER_GENGHIS_KHAN'; -- 8, primary: dom
UPDATE Leader_Flavors SET Flavor = 10 WHERE FlavorType = 'FLAVOR_OFFENSE' AND LeaderType = 'LEADER_GENGHIS_KHAN'; -- 8, primary: dom
UPDATE Leader_Flavors SET Flavor = 10 WHERE FlavorType = 'FLAVOR_NUKE' AND LeaderType = 'LEADER_GENGHIS_KHAN'; -- 9, primary: dom
UPDATE Leader_Flavors SET Flavor = 10 WHERE FlavorType = 'FLAVOR_USE_NUKE' AND LeaderType = 'LEADER_GENGHIS_KHAN'; -- 9, primary: dom
UPDATE Leader_Flavors SET Flavor = 7 WHERE FlavorType = 'FLAVOR_TILE_IMPROVEMENT' AND LeaderType = 'LEADER_GENGHIS_KHAN'; -- 3, UB

These are the lines I found... most are already set to 10 (10=max ?) Skirmishers are not here...

Thanks anyway...

I made a pull request to add this line to that block:
UPDATE Leader_Flavors SET Flavor = 10 WHERE FlavorType = 'FLAVOR_MOBILE' AND LeaderType = 'LEADER_GENGHIS_KHAN'; -- 7, UA and UU

 

[azum4roll]

Mongolian units are stronger against city-state troops

This is not a thing.

The Khan is not only a Great General with additional "pilum" promotion (10 damage points at the beginning of each turn), but also a great medic

The damage timing is at the end of the enemy unit's turn, like a citadel.

All Skirmisher units have more movement points (5), plus double attack and the ability to move afterwards if there are any points left.

Skirmishers already have base 5 movement and move after attack.

AI does not know about the Trait_FreePromotionUnitClass table, so they're never going to produce more skirmishers than mounted melee. Why they actually produce less compared to other civs is a mystery.
FLAVOR_MOBILE isn't going to help. It's mounted and armored unit classes only. Skirmishers are archers. Currently used flavors don't affect skirmisher production (you can use FLAVOR_SKIRMISHER introduced by @balparmak).

 

[4CV]

I have now run the game again in the same way to have a comparison. The Mongols again had no interest in skirmishers. However, I noticed that several city-states had produced 3 or 4 Skirmishers. So the unit was not ignored in principle. That should be enough for now. I don't think I'm capable of making my own improvements here. Perhaps there will be an option to use the improved Skirmishers as the Mongols' 2nd UU at some point in the future. Then they would probably be produced preferentially.
*** Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version) ***

 

[msw1]

One of the most OP things about Mongolia is the Ordo's ability to regenerate all movement of units passing over it. With some strategic placement and a bunch of skirmisher units, an ordo near an opponent's city is basically a death sentence for that city. You can attack it a ridiculous number of times without the city or surrounding units ever being able to even fight back. But I am guessing that this is something the AI is basically unable to intentionally use.

 

[CppMaster]

But I am guessing that this is something the AI is basically unable to intentionally use.

In that case it should be fixed, so it's not unbalanced, that it's too weak for AI and too strong for player.

 

[4CV]

One of the most OP things about Mongolia is the Ordo's ability to regenerate all movement of units passing over it. With some strategic placement and a bunch of skirmisher units, an ordo near an opponent's city is basically a death sentence for that city. You can attack it a ridiculous number of times without the city or surrounding units ever being able to even fight back. But I am guessing that this is something the AI is basically unable to intentionally use.

Unfortunately, I can't say anything about this for several reasons. Above all, I wasn't even aware of this ability. Then, only two Khans were born during the entire game and I don't think I would have swapped them for an Ordo. They were too strong in direct combat, or the resistance of the AI was too weak, you could say.
Btw, are only the movement points renewed or the combat points as well? That would be better than a T2000 indeed...
*** Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version) ***

 

[hokath]

Just movement. It lets you cycle skirmishers.
Later, they serve like pit stops, allowing you to move units across your empire super fast -- very good on larger maps, especially when everyone declares on you for your "crimes".

(my German was better than I thought)

 

[axatin]

Pathfinding doesn't understand that Ordos restore moves, that's why the tactical AI can't take it into account (and the paths in the UI are incorrect). That should indeed be fixed, and so should Mongolia not building enough Skirmishers... After the 4uc integration we should have more time again to work on AI improvements.

 

[azum4roll]

Simply extending the pathfinder algorithm to handle a "restore all moves" scenario could break it (paths can now be infinitely long). This will require special handling.

 

[4CV]

I absolutely don't want to consider myself an expert on the Mongols, having finally tried them out once, after so many years. I've already mentioned that I found them very entertaining as a player, even without knowing the special Ordo abilities. Of course, I'm going to take them again right now to see if Ordos are really better than active Khans...

How could they win twice as AI against Poland and Korea, even though they didn't use any of their specialties?
Perhaps they benefited from my special test environment (epic, small map without water, only three nations but more city-states)
Otoh, they preferred to ally CSs rather than demand tribute.... When developer resources are available again, this could perhaps be adjusted? Make "Mongol Terror" terrible again!

 

[azum4roll]

Allying is still generally better than tribute if you can do it for no cost (through quests etc.)

Tributes have several downsides, a not so obvious one being it makes the CS give denounce or declare war quests to other civs.

 

[balparmak]

UPDATE Leader_Flavors SET Flavor = 10 WHERE FlavorType = 'FLAVOR_MILITARY_TRAINING' AND LeaderType = 'LEADER_GENGHIS_KHAN'; -- 8, primary: dom
UPDATE Leader_Flavors SET Flavor = 10 WHERE FlavorType = 'FLAVOR_OFFENSE' AND LeaderType = 'LEADER_GENGHIS_KHAN'; -- 8, primary: dom
UPDATE Leader_Flavors SET Flavor = 10 WHERE FlavorType = 'FLAVOR_NUKE' AND LeaderType = 'LEADER_GENGHIS_KHAN'; -- 9, primary: dom
UPDATE Leader_Flavors SET Flavor = 10 WHERE FlavorType = 'FLAVOR_USE_NUKE' AND LeaderType = 'LEADER_GENGHIS_KHAN'; -- 9, primary: dom
UPDATE Leader_Flavors SET Flavor = 7 WHERE FlavorType = 'FLAVOR_TILE_IMPROVEMENT' AND LeaderType = 'LEADER_GENGHIS_KHAN'; -- 3, UB

These are the lines I found... most are already set to 10 (10=max ?) Skirmishers are not here...

Thanks anyway...

Thanks for working on this! Using default flavors might not help in this case, since we don’t have one reserved for skirmishers, FLAVOR_MOBILE is shared by all cavalry/armor. IIRC offensive AI doesn't value ranged highly, so most of the increase in mobile units may go to melee cav. In general, the AI’s production of UUs is boosted by separate code, but I’m not sure if we have anything specific for boosting production of a unit line like skirmishers.

If you still have the time or interest to run another test, could you try using the attached modmod? It’s a tweaked version of UPAI (adds new flavors for skirmishers and other missing unit lines), with Genghis’ skirmisher flavor set to 10 (can be set higher, but conventionally leader flavors don't exceed 10). If flavors can help with this, the modmod should show a noticeable increase in skirmishers.

You can also see the number of unit types they have in Logs/MilitarySummary.csv, if the header is missing, the order should be:

Spoiler The header gets removed from the log file after reload, you can copy/paste the line below and open with Excel etc. to get a readable view :

Turn, Player, Era, Cities, Settlers, LandUnits, LandArmySize, RecLandOffensive, RecLandDefensive, NavalUnits, NavalArmySize, RecNavyOffensive, MeleeUnits, MobileUnits, ReconUnits, ArcherUnits, SiegeUnits, SkirmisherUnits, AllLandRanged, AntiAirUnits, MeleeNavalUnits, RangedNavalUnits, Submarines, Carriers, TotalAirUnits, BomberUnits, FighterUnits, Nukes, Missiles, RecTotal, TotalMilitaryUnits, SupplyLimit, OutOfSupply, WarWearinessSupplyReduction, NoSupplyUnits, WarCount, MostEndangeredCity, Danger

I'm definitely pushing UPAI to main if this works lol