Something about religion, offensive to none

[neriana]

That is like saying that all Catholics are Protestant. Something that will get you severely glassed in Glasgow city centre.

No, it's like saying all Protestants are Catholics. Like Judaism, Catholicism was first.

Jesus Christ said he was bringing a new covenant, and you could pretty much ignore the old one. However, the way Christianity is often actually preached, at least in the U.S., they might as well be following the Old Testament fire n'brimstone prophets and not even looking at anything Jesus said.

Jews can marry anyone they want, but there are many Jewish sects (like of any other religion), and each has different "rules". Most Jews in America are not orthodox. I am related to some Jewish people, without being Jewish myself, or coming from a Jewish family.

Judaism was and is significantly more influential in the world than Shintoism. I also don't think Confucianism should be classified as a religion, but I guess that's the best place to put it from the given choices.

 

[Thehistoryman]

Confusanisim is very much a religion in many of the ways westerners would define religion. They have temples, there are ceramonies, they have burial rites and rituals, they have a moral code. It is hard for westerners to understand that a philosophy and a religion do not have the same boundries as we have here in the west. Saying confusanisim is not a relgion but only a philosophy you must also say the same about buddhisim. In a way arent all religions also philosophies?

Speaking to Firaxis's eruocentrisim. There is a bias there (primarily because i dont think a "country" is the same thing as a "civilization").

 

[PriestOfDiscord]

Also, think how many oriental religions there already are. Taoism and Confucianism are Chinese, while Budhism and Hinduism are both indian. Why have 5 religions from one relatively small area of the world, and have just two religions from somewhere else? I'd replace Confucianism with Shintoism, as Confucianism isn't a religion.

Small area of the world? Those two countries each control a large landmass and together make up over a third of the entire population of humanity. That's not small.

 

[QuoVadisNation]

Hey guys. Instead of putting all this thought into civ IV religion, why don't we treat it for what it really is?

A small symbol that's meant to be used to manipulate your civilization for your own benefit.

Just like in real life.

 

[solvero]

As a jew I can promise to you that Judaism had more influence on the world than Shintoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism and Confucianism (if that's how you write it). Judaism made christianity and Islam, and I believe you would not say that they have no effect on the world, right?

And I have to add in addition that jews can marry whoever they want to and even can choose whatever ceremonies they want to make. I define myself an Atheist more than a jew, but people that are strong believers do what they want to. Don't talk about Judaism if you don't know that much about it.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

However, Judaism should be founded first, by simply switching Polytheism with Monotheism on the tech tree. Firaxis, are you listening!!!

Actually Hinduism predates Judaism (depending on wheter you consider it to be founded with Moses or Abraham)

Realistically the order should go
Hinduism
Judaism
Buddhism
Confucianism
Taoism
Christianity
Islam

I'd say the Solution would be to switch Monotheism for Meditation
Give Monotheism the cost of 100, Polytheism the cost of 80
Have Priesthood require Mono OR Polytheism
Give Meditation the requirement for Polytheism (arrow) AND Masonry .. and the cost of 120 (net cost of 300)

Monarchy Require Priesthood


Ideally there would be some method whereby

1. Hinduism and Hinduism are the Earliest religions, however they spread Very little if at all
2. Confucianism and Buddhism emerge at similar times (at about this point religions begin to spread outside the state, and missionaries are enabled)..Both start with one missionary
3. Taoism and Christianity emerge at similar times... both start with multiple missionaries
4. Islam emerges last.. Getting a Great Prophet as well as multiple missionaries

 

[Hamminator]

Hey guys. Instead of putting all this thought into civ IV religion, why don't we treat it for what it really is?

A small symbol that's meant to be used to manipulate your civilization for your own benefit.

Just like in real life.

Or start wars! Convert the Heathens! And by convert I mean kill!!

 

[Jason Fliegel]

I'm not sure how adding an eighth religion would affect game balance, but one interesting thought would be to add Shintoism as a new religion that you discover with a tech (naturism?) that has agriculture and hunting as prerequisites. This would give an alternative early religion that steers away from the Mysticism end of the tech tree.

 

[Junichiro]

Well, to be technical, all Christians are also Jews, since Christianity is an extension of Judaism, not an independently-developed religion.

The Old Testament? Pure Judaism.

Judaism is also the original organized monotheistic religion, which was an important milestone in the development of modern religion.

...nope. Jesus himself was Jewish, but his followers separated from Judaism around year 40 (too lazy to look the exact year of council of Jerusalem up). There is was decided that non-Jewish people can convert to become followers of Jesus without having to follow the laws of Judaism, circumcision and all that. Thus, Christianity made a definite separation from Judaism at that point and also started to reintepret the Old Testament through their own viewpoint. (This is why St Paul is considered such important figure in world history, without him followers of Jesus would probably have remained a rather short-lived Judaist sect...)

Similarly Islam considers Abraham, Moses and Jesus to be prophets of Allah but they have reintepreted Judaist and Christian teachings and added a good deal of their own.

 

[zeeter]

You know, I think that Firaxis could have picked seven colors to represent anonymous religions and some people would argue that Magenta should be replaced by Canary since Canary is more prominant in society than Magenta.

It's just a game.

 

[warpus]

Well, to be technical, all Christians are also Jews, since Christianity is an extension of Judaism, not an independently-developed religion.

The Old Testament? Pure Judaism.

Judaism is also the original organized monotheistic religion, which was an important milestone in the development of modern religion.

Judaism wasn't the first organized monotheistic religion.

 

[Depravo]

I agree. I prefer to think of the religions in Civ as representing generic 'big ideas' that were given real-world names just for leavening.

Frx, in my last game as Egypt, I founded Confucianism. It's not hard to imagine the real-world Egyptians, who were reactionary, thorough and systematic to a fault, coming up with their own form of dogmatic legalism and that's how I pretend it was. In the same game it was the Indians who founded Christianity and we can imagine this as some kind of Krishna kvlt.

 

[MoonBase]

"Why have 5 religions from one relatively small area of the world..." It could be because between India and China alone there is estimated to be well over 2 billion of the worlds estimated 7 billion in population... That small area of the world you mean?

Just a nit-pick, but Lord Gideon's point still does kinda stand.

Just look at the numbers you posted: Replacing a western religion with Shintoism would mean 5 out of 7 religions in the game come from a region of the world that currently has 2 out of 7 billions of people in the world.

That's just a tad uneven, don't ya think?

On the original note, though, I'm in favor of there being as many religions as concievable in the game. Honestly, considering how innocuous they made the religion benefits (with the exception of the Shrine bonus and the founding-city Intel, both of which I actually think are a might over powered), I'm slightly annoyed that we only get seven religions to choose from, and that perforce they're going to be the exact same seven every game.

I would love to have a CIV game where Arian Christianity wins out over Catholic Christianity, where dar-al-Islam has its own Protestant Reformation and Counter-Reformation, where competing Hindu sects fight religious wars, where there are vast crusades and trade competitions between the world-spanning faiths of Zoroastrianism and Shinto, where Judaism or Christianity or whichever is never founded, so on and so forth.

I mean, I've already got a CIV where Mongolia can be the technological leader of the world and those backwards Americans can only be brought into opening their markets via gunpoint, where I can have a Socialistic Hereditary Theocracy that guarantees Free Speech and practices Slavery. So why not (now that it's been established that Firaxis means no particular religion any ill-will or insult of any sort) build the same sort of freedom into the religion system?

 

[ticktockclok]

Ok, I'm gonna clear up some of your controversial statements.

I can never convert to Judaism... Also it's said that Jewish girls never marry an outsider?

So the spread of Judaism means some of the Jewish people are driven there, as what happened in history?

I find this quite ridiculous...

You technically could convert to Judaism, but the problem is that Jews, traditionally, tend to separate themselves from the rest of society. Orthodox Jews try to stay on their own in whatever community they end up in. So when the Hebrew leaders were relocated to Mesopotamia, they stayed separate and wrote the Torah. Basically, any 'outsider' Jew can convert, but he'll never be considered as good as a Jew by blood.

However, Judaism should be founded first, by simply switching Polytheism with Monotheism on the tech tree. Firaxis, are you listening!!!

Polytheism came around long before monotheism. I'm not understanding your reasoning....

Well, to be technical, all Christians are also Jews, since Christianity is an extension of Judaism, not an independently-developed religion.

The Old Testament? Pure Judaism.

Judaism is also the original organized monotheistic religion, which was an important milestone in the development of modern religion.

"All Christians are also Jews.." ?

Where do you get this information from?
I don't know any Christians that consider themselves Jewish. And I don't think Jews consider Christians as Jews.
So how are you defining it?

Jesus was an Essenic Rabbi, a Jew. Few Jews went along with him, but some of his followers, namely Paul, were the ones who actually started Christianity. At death, Christ, who some people mistakingly name as the founder of Christianity, remained a Jew.

 

[Cam. of Erracht]

Ok, I'm gonna clear up some of your controversial statements.



You technically could convert to Judaism, but the problem is that Jews, traditionally, tend to separate themselves from the rest of society. Orthodox Jews try to stay on their own in whatever community they end up in. So when the Hebrew leaders were relocated to Mesopotamia, they stayed separate and wrote the Torah. Basically, any 'outsider' Jew can convert, but he'll never be considered as good as a Jew by blood.



Polytheism came around long before monotheism. I'm not understanding your reasoning....




Jesus was an Essenic Rabbi, a Jew. Few Jews went along with him, but some of his followers, namely Paul, were the ones who actually started Christianity. At death, Christ, who some people mistakingly name as the founder of Christianity, remained a Jew.

When I attended my Roman Catholic schooling, I distinctly remember my being taught that Christ was a Gentile and not a Jew.

 

[jwildstr]

Basically, any 'outsider' Jew can convert, but he'll never be considered as good as a Jew by blood.

OK, now that we really ARE starting to border on the offensive, I'd like to take issue with this statement.

A convert may not be considered as a "Jew by blood" by some, but that's a pretty sweeping generalization you made there. I'm a "twice-a-year" Jew, which is to say that the only holiday groups I really observe are Rosh Hashana/Yom Kippur (the High Holy Days), and Passover. At the temple I attended some number of years ago, I met a recent convert at Rosh Hashana services. I'd definitely say she was a "better" Jew than I was...She went to services every week, should could read the Hebrew better than me, and in general, she was more observant than me.

Now, yes, this may be true for some people. But I'd also be surprised if it wasn't true for many other religions as well. Just as you can't make a statment about Christianity by saying that something Eastern Orthodox Christians believe or observe, you really can't make sweeping generalizations about Judaism based on any one of the "branches".

 

[solvero]

Everyone saying Firaxis should switch between Mono and Buddhism: Monotheism would'nt have been created if Polytheism existed, so they had to make it that you need Poly for Mono. I can understand that in reality buddhism should be later, but they didn't want the founder of Poly to have a religion monopoly early and they wanted to give other civs the happiness bonus. I think religions are perfectly balanced. Even Islam is good for people that couldn't establish a religion earlier because of unbalanced economy.

 

[MoonBase]

When I attended my Roman Catholic schooling, I distinctly remember my being taught that Christ was a Gentile and not a Jew.

Really? Because the RC priests I've talked to on the subject might point out the geneologies making JC a direct descendant of David on "both" sides (the quotes being because it always seemed a little odd to count Joseph's ancestry...for obvious reasons...)

 

[jimbob27]

When I attended my Roman Catholic schooling, I distinctly remember my being taught that Christ was a Gentile and not a Jew.

Really.......you teacher is an absolute moron. Jeus wasn't a gentile, he was a Jew. Google it if you don't believe me. You're just making yourself look stupid by posting rubbish.

 

[MoonBase]

Easy there. No need to get all nasty about it, dude.