Something Different (SSE/EE Immortal)

[Nuwan]

Translating commerce into EP is less efficient than commerce into science, specially in the early game. 1 commerce can give 1.25 or more science with libraries and monasteries but only 1 EP. Even later on its hard to get much more than a 1:1 ratio of EP to science points.

On the other hand, spy specialists and great spies have a nice advantage. Spies give 4EP 1 Science compared to 3 Science for a scientist giving a 2:1 ratio of EP to science. It seems the best way to run EE would be through specialists as you are doing, but keep the EP slider at 0 and tech as normal.

 

[r_rolo1]

Spy tech steal has a bonus for standing still ( -10% per turn, max 50% ) , religion discounts... and espionage has a discount for generated EE ( more espionage = cheaper espionage... can you see the positive feedback? ). This tilts the scale easily to the espionage side.

 

[Gliese 581]

I wonder if the best approach is not to use all great spies for scotland yards. That's 100% EP boost, a level you can't reach for beakers until superconductors. Maybe a financial civ that carefully choose great commerce cities for their SY, and use all gspies on SYs.
That is, if you goal is to get all techs through espionage, banning other methods.

Edit: Liz, generates gpsies the fastest and is financial.. heh I still think it would suck though, but one could try it.

 

[Nares]

I wonder if the best approach is not to use all great spies for scotland yards. That's 100% EP boost, a level you can't reach for beakers until superconductors.

And that's why I would use the Great Spies to build Scotland Yards across the board.

Using only the Great Wall as GPP generation for the first one, you're probably not going to be in a position that would (heavily) benefit from the Scotland Yard, so I think the issue isn't about using the GSpy for SYs in general, but what to do with the first one.

Assuming you're not using the overpowered Infiltrate feature, all I can say is to use that Great Spy to explore. It seems counterproductive, but those Great Spy pops will be rare until Constitution and Democracy, and I feel the EE starts breaking down with Democracy.

Exploration is the only option I would consider outside of building an SY. Settling just doesn't seem nearly as effective. Especially when considering AI reactions to EP buildup.

Slow, long-term EP buildup against a specific AI is usually matched by that AI, to some extent, leaving you with a higher base EP value to reach before you start hitting the cost reduction modifiers.

A commerce approach avoids this, using very low passive EP generation to keep those base levels low, and by employing the slider to generate a massive burst of EP, for an overall lower EP expenditure for the same return.

A commerce approach also seems to have a stronger ability to self-research as appropriate.

Gliese, Liz sounds good. I definitely believe FIN to be the premier EE trait, though FIN has very strong applications in other approaches. One advantage of the EE is that because it requires less commerce to achieve the same tech score, it does not need a strong trait such as FIN to support it. But FIN would have a much stronger ability to mix espionage with self-research, and seems less dependent on the AI to progress.

What other trait goes well with it, however? I'm thinking SPI is better than PHI. I'm thinking of religion swaps here. -15% for a city having your state religion when your target has a different state religion. -25% for a city having your state religion and you have the holy city of that religion, regardless of whether it's your target's state religion or not.

ORG might work well for the cheap courthouses. I can see where IND might be desirable on higher levels to ensure building the Great Wall, though obsolete would be better able to answer how necessary IND is in that.

 

[schwartz]

I don't think the espionage slider is the way to go personally.

A combination of running spy specialists from the courthouses along with settled G Spy from the GW (SY from the second, if you get it) creates solid EPs and you can divert commerce into the science slider, it's the best form of hybrid economy IMO.

I've been playing some test games on emperor and I have no problem outspending the AIs without ever touching the espionage slider. I also retain the tech lead by teching along a different path with my science slider and running spy specialists via Courthouses/Jails/Intelligence Agencies. This has even worked post-democracy in my experience. In my current game, I drew Ramesses as my random leader and was isolated, but once I met the rest of the AIs, Joao was nice enough to plunk down a city in the middle of the empty desert region of my island and I've been stealing from him ever since. I had 10 solid cities and 3 fair ones that could all support a spy or 2 while the capital has settled Gspies along with the SY for my best espionage city (also runs 7 spies since ~1720 and it's 1820 now)

I'm happily teching towards space and what will be my first legitimate emperor win (won a cheesy AP diplo win as Lincoln via getting a vassal & friend to vote for me).

Since I'm far from the best player, you should take my words with caution, but I've had better results without touching the espionage slider. I think the key is that you have to either go all the way with an EE or not at all, otherwise the AIs probably will outspend you on EPs. I suppose the commerce slider dodges this somewhat but it also kills teching while you do it, the spy specialist version works best with representation because the spy specialists provide +4 EPs and +4 as well. (Also if you ever get too far ahead in tech you can just switch to scientists and get even further ahead )

Also, I've never lost the GW when I was trying to get it on any level, IND or not.

PS: sorry for threadjacking obsolete

 

[BurN]

SSE/EE sucks imho. I've tried it a long time ago and wasn't pleased with it at all. I think if you want to play an EE, cottage spam+yards is the way to go.

 

[Nares]

I think the key is that you have to either go all the way with an EE or not at all, otherwise the AIs probably will outspend you on EPs.

Wouldn't SSE/EE be the complete opposite of "all or nothing?" That trickle of 4/16/20/etc EPt is what would be easily matched, not the obscene 80+ EPt you can get out of a single Scotland Yard commerce city.

I just don't think there's enough access to spy specialists prior to Constitution/Democracy.

Perhaps this is done specifically because spy specialists are so strong, especially with early representation?

Or because spy GPP are so stupidly overpowered thanks to the poorly balanced Infiltration option?

I'm interested in seeing how obsolete's game plays out. I suspect he'll be running plenty of non-spy specialists, relying instead on scientists for both research and GPP padding. Outside of Infiltration, I can't see the Great Spy being very useful for a SSE/EE. Not enough GPP generation, and relatively low output from settled Great Spies (despite being the most "productive" settled GP).

 

[schwartz]

Maybe all or nothing is not the best way to describe it.. But the point is that (as you mentioned) the AIs react to increased espionage spending by spending more themselves, so you need to make sure you can outspend your target.

 

[Nares]

But the point is that (as you mentioned) the AIs react to increased espionage spending by spending more themselves, so you need to make sure you can outspend your target.

Which is why I instinctively felt that the slider was the way to go, given the specialist/Security Bureau issue.

I think there are a variety of factors involved in the AIs decision to increase EP expenditure. The list of possible causes is quite extensive, and I don't care to speculate.

 

[Nares]

How would an apt comparison even be made between a commerce driven and a specialist driven EE?

 

[r_rolo1]

SSE/EE sucks imho. I've tried it a long time ago and wasn't pleased with it at all. I think if you want to play an EE, cottage spam+yards is the way to go.

I'm not that convinced..... I had a SG with a spy EE ( well, we had to have the slider at 100% espionage or closest, but as we were running a no cottage SE , that doesn't matter much ) and the spy spec aproach is far more powerful early ( maybe until communism..... ) ... after that clearly cottage EE is better.

 

[Nares]

and the spy spec aproach is far more powerful early ( maybe until communism..... ) ... after that clearly cottage EE is better.

On what basis are you making that claim?

You stated that you were involved in a no-cottage (read: low commerce) enforced SE/EE, enforced 0% research slider setting (read: 100% espionage slider setting). If it's the one I'm thinking of, tech trading wasn't even allowed (all of this touches on the RP taint most EE demonstrations self-inflict).

I just can't imagine how an approach limited to one specialist per city pre-Constitution can possibly compare to using the slider.

Besides which, isn't tainted by the very fact that you ran max affordable espionage slider the whole time? Doesn't that tremendously boost the SE/EE EP generation? As in, boost it far beyond the EP generation if you were to run it with commerce diverted to research? There's enough "passive" commerce generated that 100% at either setting will be a noticeable return, even without cottages.

Which brings me to my earlier point? How would an apt comparison be made? What benchmark would be used? Even outside of spy success rates, there's more than a few variables.

 

[Nares]

R_rolo1, which SG are you referring to?

The one I was thinking of was UNGY01, but looking back at it now, that's not an SE.

 

[r_rolo1]

I don't think that a easy comparison beteween specialist EE and cottage EE can be done ( it is ,after all , the classic SE vs CE in other clothings )....

But I must add a point to the comparisson: a spy EE will have more GSpies at disposal... and early in the game a settled spy ( with a S. yard will be more productive OFC ) beat cottages easily. OTOH I think that cottage EE will be far better after a certain point... but determining it looks more dificult than the corresponding problem in the classic SE vs CE, because the tech line that gives spy slots and enhacer buildings also boosts cottages.

Probably the best aproach is a dedicated GSpy farm ( S. Yard , courthouse, jail, the Demo buildings, Kremlin ( 3 spy slots ) , and settled Gspies ) while the rest of the empire runs something non espionage related.

P.S I was refering to PH-12 IIRC ... Culture win in SE with only spy specialists allowed. And we could only steal to people above our score... and we mandatorily had to gift the stolen tech to another AI

 

[BurN]

I'm not that convinced..... I had a SG with a spy EE ( well, we had to have the slider at 100% espionage or closest, but as we were running a no cottage SE , that doesn't matter much ) and the spy spec aproach is far more powerful early ( maybe until communism..... ) ... after that clearly cottage EE is better.

Explain exactly how 1 spy in every city is going to beat cottages+1 spy where you can afford it. You won't get more GS compared to a CE..

 

[Nares]

and early in the game a settled spy ( with a S. yard will be more productive OFC ) beat cottages easily.

How was this conclusion reached, and on what basis? EP over time? EP per turn? "...beat cottages easily" should be easy to explain, eh?

I mean, I know that first Great Spy is a bit confusing in figuring out what to do with it once you've ruled out Infiltration.

Both approaches seem a bit slow to start, SE/EE by virtue of a very small specialist pool (1 slot per city pre-Constitution), and CE/EE by virtue of having to build and grow cottages.

That's why I raise the issue of the first Great Spy. The CE/EE isn't ready to use it, so settling seems a natural reaction. But, as you point out, Great Spies are hard to come by pre-Constitution/Democracy, and the use of each one must be carefully considered, unlike other GPs (well, maybe GEs to a lesser extent).

I'm assuming this was discussed in the SG, so I'm going to go take a look.

 

[r_rolo1]

Explain exactly how 1 spy in every city is going to beat cottages+1 spy where you can afford it. You won't get more GS compared to a CE..

I think you responded yourself in here ( bolded )....

 

[BurN]

I think you responded yourself in here ( bolded )....

Sorry but there is no way you're going to get more GS then a CE until democracy. You can pretty much always afford 1 silly specialist. Let's say a CE should run a spy in 3-4 cities so a SE wouldn't get more. Later on a CE will make a GP farm and you will run specialists everywhere so from there on, yes.

Will those extra post-democracy GS's make up for the lack of commerce? I don't think so but you're free to believe otherwise. I think the emancipation boost to all your cottages and PP will be more then enough to beat those extra GS's.

Maybe I'm missing something so feel free to disagree. Can I have a link to your SG? You can pm if you want.

 

[Nares]

I think you responded yourself in here ( bolded )....

??

Please explain "beat cottages easily," or at least refer me to the discussion.

I only glanced at the thread, and took a peek at a mid-game save.

What I saw was that SE needs Pyramids, and EE needs GW, so you're relying on two wonders rather than one. Not necessarily a major issue, and nothing I didn't expect.

Beyond that, all I notice is that you're generating a roughly equal amount of commerce as you are raw beakers or raw espionage, even without cottages.

Everything points to a jury that's still deliberating. Nothing as conclusive as "[SE/EE] beats cottages easily [pre-Communism]."

I read BurN's comment as basically referring to the GPP generation. Running specialists as a CE...not so much, even if it is just one per city, especially without the Pyramids.

 

[Nares]

BurN, just search the SG forum for PH12. Should be subtitled "Men in Tights."