TyranusBonehead
Bound & Determined
I've never played these two games, but I like your ideas.
Something I miss from SMAC and MOO2
- Thread starter j_buckingham80
- Start date
Well, it has been a long while since I last checked and I never tried them myself, but there was a whole bunch of fanmade patches to fix the game. Part of the problem seemed to be figuring out which ones to use. I guess that you really got to want to like the game to delve deeper into that. I doubt they can really fix the game enough, and MOO3 will remain "good basic idea, very bad implementation all the way" in my books.Argh said:
MOO2 is great, but suffers a bit of the demon of micromanagement. Fights also can get tedious when you got huge fleets. I believe some people prefer MOO1 and its sleek slider interface because of this.
MOO3 has had alot of fan work done to it. With the 1.25 patch and Bhurics patches it is quite playable and enjoyable (well the last one depends on your personal bent).
If you still have the CDs check out the forums at atari and get the latest and greatest patches and see if its not interesting.
I understand that alot of people went off the deep end when MOO3 wasn't MOO2.5, but they tried something new that actally is working pretty well now. You do have to shift your expectations on micro vs. macro though, and its not for everyone, but it is actually a very interesting product at this point.
If you still have the CDs check out the forums at atari and get the latest and greatest patches and see if its not interesting.
I understand that alot of people went off the deep end when MOO3 wasn't MOO2.5, but they tried something new that actally is working pretty well now. You do have to shift your expectations on micro vs. macro though, and its not for everyone, but it is actually a very interesting product at this point.
I do not think I could bring myself to give MOO3 another try.
Have the patches fixd the game from changing the Build queues from what the player selects?
Civ4 is a different game from Civ3. However it still feels like Civ.
MOO3 felt nothing like MOO2 to me. I still play MOO2.
Have the patches fixd the game from changing the Build queues from what the player selects?
Civ4 is a different game from Civ3. However it still feels like Civ.
MOO3 felt nothing like MOO2 to me. I still play MOO2.
Panda
Metal head
Pratputajao said:
They went bankrupt ages ago.
I too used to think MoO2 was the best game ever... until Civ 3 came out.
The patches to MOO3 have fixed many of the main issues from the early days. It still may not be your cup of tea, but it is playable.
The big fixes include:
PD working
Visability working
AI invading (and there is a new mod to take invasions out completely, its quite interesting)
Your complaint about the advisors changing your builds is fixed as well, or at least I've never encountered it since playing with the patches. You still can micro your DEV plans and military queues (and lock the military to repeat builds), or you can let the advisors run it for you. The DEV plans work pretty well once you understand them, and its easy to control the military builds by only having the ships you want built available.
I like MOO2 alot also, but the end game just kills me to the point where I get board. MOO3s end game can be equally annoying, but you can stop with the mirco at some point and if you've set your DEV plans and available ships correctly you don't have to bother with much micro at all late game. Instead you can focus on the strategic military and diplomacy aspects of it.
The big fixes include:
PD working
Visability working
AI invading (and there is a new mod to take invasions out completely, its quite interesting)
Your complaint about the advisors changing your builds is fixed as well, or at least I've never encountered it since playing with the patches. You still can micro your DEV plans and military queues (and lock the military to repeat builds), or you can let the advisors run it for you. The DEV plans work pretty well once you understand them, and its easy to control the military builds by only having the ships you want built available.
I like MOO2 alot also, but the end game just kills me to the point where I get board. MOO3s end game can be equally annoying, but you can stop with the mirco at some point and if you've set your DEV plans and available ships correctly you don't have to bother with much micro at all late game. Instead you can focus on the strategic military and diplomacy aspects of it.
rabottens
Warlord
I would like to see a weaker civ allow vassalization. I would also like to see a weaker civ be allowed to cede up to 1/3 of its cities to an ally or neighbor rather than allow annexation. When the dominate civ demands annexation they get 2/3 and the other 1/3 gets ceded randomly amongst its allies. Chances are you would derive little tech from a conquered foe because of them being behind you considerably in tech. But if they had a tech advantage they should willingly give it up as part of the vassal/annexation agreement. But something like this might be very difficult to code into the game when you look at cooperative invasions and alliances and how to divide up an enemy. It could prove interesting to say the least. It could result in unfavorable tipping the scales though.
I would like to see espionage take on a bit deeper role as far as tech stealing and other options go. I know during the cold war there was a lot of spy v.s. spy going on in the area of tech. Even today we have stealing of corporate tech and intellectual property seems fitting that somehow that could be incorporated into the modern era.
With the development of computers and satelites it should be quite easy to track enemy army movements and military plans. I would think spying should be stepped up after these advances to incorporate some of this.
I would like to see espionage take on a bit deeper role as far as tech stealing and other options go. I know during the cold war there was a lot of spy v.s. spy going on in the area of tech. Even today we have stealing of corporate tech and intellectual property seems fitting that somehow that could be incorporated into the modern era.
With the development of computers and satelites it should be quite easy to track enemy army movements and military plans. I would think spying should be stepped up after these advances to incorporate some of this.
first to the orriginal intent of the thread I agree having the vassalage idea is very good. One idea is it mya not work with all civics and that may be a way to end the vassalage after a period of time but that may get a little complicated. I know this game will always have a struggle to stay true to history or be more enjoyable and to that I say it is supposed to be an alternative history, what if romans stayed in power or true democracy never occured, maybe permanent subservient nations is not to ureasonable. If nothing else many times has a a smaller nation been completly assimilated by a larger nation but still feel they are independant somewhat.
I also like the ideas of tech steal or acquiring, maybe not as easy as in SMAC but still possible.
regarding the other games I thought MOO3 was ok, the mods do help but it is still slow going at times and can feel to much like work. I really liked MOO2 but on my current computer after a while the graphics turn the background all black and you can't see some things and the game stops being fun, one of these days I will try and fix that and retry the game. Weird to think I would have graphical problems on a newer compiuter with better stats.
I also like the ideas of tech steal or acquiring, maybe not as easy as in SMAC but still possible.
regarding the other games I thought MOO3 was ok, the mods do help but it is still slow going at times and can feel to much like work. I really liked MOO2 but on my current computer after a while the graphics turn the background all black and you can't see some things and the game stops being fun, one of these days I will try and fix that and retry the game. Weird to think I would have graphical problems on a newer compiuter with better stats.
JadeDragon87
Chieftain
I agree with the idea of vassalage. The conquered cities should be in civil disorder, which you first have to solve. Then you would have to keep them happy and if not they could separate again from you.
I also like the spy options of civ 3, and I think it would be very cool that a spy could become stronger with promotions (like more chance to sabotage, higher chance to intercept enemy spies, ability to bribe, ...).
I also like the spy options of civ 3, and I think it would be very cool that a spy could become stronger with promotions (like more chance to sabotage, higher chance to intercept enemy spies, ability to bribe, ...).
I know why the creators of Civ 4 did not include a tech steal option and for good reason. It simply is too powerful a motivator for war... Now I know that on the higher levels war is a given and must-do to win strategy, but it really makes peaceable victory options less attractive and in many ways more difficult.
In CTPII the spy could steal tech and this was a dang pain but made the game much more interesting.
In CTPII the spy could steal tech and this was a dang pain but made the game much more interesting.
From masterofmagic2.com forums: "Personally I think MoM2 hasn't been made for one simple reason, licensing and legalities." That's probably the reason. Stardock has been trying to get the license from Atari, but it doesn't look like they were successful.Pratputajao said:
Back on topic. I agree that giving annexed nations a chance to get independent again would be nice, but the trick is implementing that. It still needs to be attractive enough for the conqueror to go for it instead of just wiping out the enemy. Only thing I think of is subservience pact for limited number of turns, but that doesn't seem attractive enough.
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Freeing them could be a diplo option - if the overlords are defeated in war, the victors could demand that they free their vassals.
I think from a historic perspective stealing tech should be a part of the game. There was something on PBS recently about British and American commando units which were dispatched ahead of the D-Day invasion with specific instructions to grab any German rocket scientists they could find, and do so with utmost haste, since the Soviets were trying to do the same. Of course, both the Western Allies and the Soviets got German rocket scientists, as well as Jet Propulsion - which is why the US and USSR had such similar orbital programs, similar ICBM capabilities (and the Chinese and Soviets stole atomic secrets from the US), and why the SuperSabre and the early MiG fighters looked almost identical.
I think having a spy steal from enemy civs is a must, as well as the diplomatic consequences of ripping off allied or neutral civs - I know the CIA and Mossad played 'find the atomic secrets' way back when, and the US is Israel's best ally.
I think having a spy steal from enemy civs is a must, as well as the diplomatic consequences of ripping off allied or neutral civs - I know the CIA and Mossad played 'find the atomic secrets' way back when, and the US is Israel's best ally.
j_buckingham80
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2005
- Messages
- 30
Thanks for keeping this thread going while I was away, I really appreciate what a lot of you have said.
I agree that the outpost thing was a problem, which is why some of the suggestions that people had about limiting it to major cities would be a good idea. Also, I think MOO2's system did only give you a percentage chance of stealing a tech. But the more techs and the bigger the planet would increase your odds of getting any particular one. I don't necessarily think it would be an easy thing to do, but it would be a nice thing; taking a 19 pop capital and getting only 200 gold from it seems a little...well cheap...losing a city that size should be much more "expensive" to the underdefended civ.
Spy promotions in SMAC were totally cool as well. That was overall so great a game, the sad thing was I don't think I ever got to play it multiplayer. Also, I never did get Alien Crossfire, and now it sells for like $100 bucks...Come on Firaxis! There's money in that.
Another thing about the vassalage. One thing cIV has done really neatly is the city revolt "problem," the game is kind of enough that if you hover over the city % population bar it will show you a percentage chance of revolt. This is so helpful. Helps me to figure out if I need to A. drop more units B. Expend more culture C. take out the pressuring city ASAP, etc. I think with the vassalage idea, the same concept could be instituted, but so that if you hover over the vassal's name it would provide you with a percent chance of revolt. That could increase or decrease over time.
Also, the very cool thing about vassal's (and something which cIV already has done which is kind of neat), is that a "liberator" could come and turn the cities back over to the vassal. I really appreciate the liberate city idea. Which works great in multiplayer say when I'm a little more powerful than my wife who's lost a city. So, just make it so that the vassal could also be "liberated." It'd probably be complex. That being said though it seems like a lot of the things that would make it work are already there.
I know also, one other thing I really liked about SMAC was the way they handled civics. Instead of each civic acting independently they merely changed how particular items works together (I always felt Free Market and Wealth and Morgan Industries was wonderfully powerful for tech/economy the energy boost was huge). But cIV has a system where each government acts independently of the other. Which I guess is okay, but something about Universal Suffrage, Free Speech, Slavery, State Property, and Theocracy, seems odd together. SMAC was really good in making it so that stacking certain civics really boosted their utility. (If I remember going from 2 economies to 3 economies was a big jump, and a lot were like that).
Of course one of the big helps in SMAC was getting that wonder that made you invulnerable to probe teams (spies in SMAC), which also had a really awesome quote from Sun Tzu.
I agree that the outpost thing was a problem, which is why some of the suggestions that people had about limiting it to major cities would be a good idea. Also, I think MOO2's system did only give you a percentage chance of stealing a tech. But the more techs and the bigger the planet would increase your odds of getting any particular one. I don't necessarily think it would be an easy thing to do, but it would be a nice thing; taking a 19 pop capital and getting only 200 gold from it seems a little...well cheap...losing a city that size should be much more "expensive" to the underdefended civ.
Spy promotions in SMAC were totally cool as well. That was overall so great a game, the sad thing was I don't think I ever got to play it multiplayer. Also, I never did get Alien Crossfire, and now it sells for like $100 bucks...Come on Firaxis! There's money in that.
Another thing about the vassalage. One thing cIV has done really neatly is the city revolt "problem," the game is kind of enough that if you hover over the city % population bar it will show you a percentage chance of revolt. This is so helpful. Helps me to figure out if I need to A. drop more units B. Expend more culture C. take out the pressuring city ASAP, etc. I think with the vassalage idea, the same concept could be instituted, but so that if you hover over the vassal's name it would provide you with a percent chance of revolt. That could increase or decrease over time.
Also, the very cool thing about vassal's (and something which cIV already has done which is kind of neat), is that a "liberator" could come and turn the cities back over to the vassal. I really appreciate the liberate city idea. Which works great in multiplayer say when I'm a little more powerful than my wife who's lost a city. So, just make it so that the vassal could also be "liberated." It'd probably be complex. That being said though it seems like a lot of the things that would make it work are already there.
I know also, one other thing I really liked about SMAC was the way they handled civics. Instead of each civic acting independently they merely changed how particular items works together (I always felt Free Market and Wealth and Morgan Industries was wonderfully powerful for tech/economy the energy boost was huge). But cIV has a system where each government acts independently of the other. Which I guess is okay, but something about Universal Suffrage, Free Speech, Slavery, State Property, and Theocracy, seems odd together. SMAC was really good in making it so that stacking certain civics really boosted their utility. (If I remember going from 2 economies to 3 economies was a big jump, and a lot were like that).
Of course one of the big helps in SMAC was getting that wonder that made you invulnerable to probe teams (spies in SMAC), which also had a really awesome quote from Sun Tzu.
Pratputajao said:
Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic is about as close to MoM2 as we're going to get, I think. But it's pretty damn good. There isn't a lot different, really - basically the same spheres, same spells, similar units, hero units, unit TBS combat - there are even two planes.
As do I.
I think it's really dumb how enemy Civs will guard their resources on the verge of annihilation. I loved in SMAC that a faction would basically surrender to you, and that conquering a city would yield techs or credits.
deo
Emperor
It would be a bit unbalanced if you could steal techs while conquering their nation because than you could just build military units and conquer and conquer, that would destroy the fun. In the other way it would be a realy realy a great idea if you could steal plans, map (like in Eu2) and 1-2 techs if you conquer their capital.
Vaiks
Chieftain
For those thinking about MOO2 and SMAC, they are classics and classics are timeless.
Play'em, you will not regret it!
Play'em, you will not regret it!
