Sons of Monarchy IX: Asoka of India

[Marcvs Avrelivs]

Lib. Date @ 800 AD:

Spoiler :

Nothing much happened, just teched along to Music (and took the free GA, which was turned into a GA), Paper, Edu, Nat and Lib. Settled a useless and pathetic city on the marble to hook it up, no more, as to speed up Taj build time (~30 turns cut into 12.) Took Mil. Trad as Lib tech and will now be teching gunpowder.... then we turn off tech for some time and whip cuirs

However, one funny thing happened: Mansa peacevassaled to Darius Really, it is already annoying when you're competing with a techwhore like Mansa.... but two of them?! This is bound to be interesting...

As well, the map seems to be split into two, different sides, with the Hindu block to my east, consisting of Boudicca, Mansa and Darius:

...and the Buddhist block to the South, consisting of Charlie, Bismarck and Gilg:

I happened to be aligned with the Hindus, but considering the fact that Darius and Mansa will now be teching TOGETHER, I may just decide to pay them a visit....

EDIT: Also just noticed that Darius is preparing to DoW on someone... Considering that my military sucks, target is probably me.... hence why I signed a DP with Boudicca

 

[Choggy]

Monarch/Normal/No Huts/No Events/ - 2000BC to 350AD.

As before, please feel free to comment on my progress so far - I've also attached the savegame (BUG).

Spoiler :

Had the choice after pottery came in to either go Wonder-Whoring or Sword-Rush Darius. In the end it was the nearby Stone that swung it for me, so bee-lined Priesthood for Oracle (975BC) for CoL and those cheap courthouses before building the Mids for Rep/Caste (500BC). Bee-lined Currency and then went for early Civil Service (125AD) whilst expanding my northern borders out to block in Darius.

I'm now up to 7 cities which is a bit slow but I think the trade off between settling early cities and building those wonders was worth it - I've potentially got 180 beakers per turn to play with already and I'm several techs ahead of the AI and pulling away. Just as important though is that I've blocked off Darius to the North now - that worker steal early on in the game really put him back and the only direction for him to expand into now is towards Mansa.

Religion is proving a bit troublesome - I haven't taken one yet and I won't be able to for a while yet. By founding Confu from CoL and blocking off Darius (Hindu) and Mansa (Jewish) from the rest of the map I've inadvertently created a hindu lovefest between Bismarck, Giggles, Charlie and Boadicea. I've only got one city with hinduism at the moment and it's not developed enough to start building missionaries yet.

Screenshots below and save attached. The Barb City in the north is about to get HA-rushed and razed so I can settle City A site near the marble (I would settle on top of it but I need to spread irrigation south from the riverside tundra). City B site is for the double fish/corn.

Screenshots

Spoiler :

 

[Choggy]

1585AD Conquest Victory

Easy game once I had set my borders. I messed about a bit in the mid-game and missed a couple of important tech-trades which I then had to self-tech. I should have got to Lib around 10 turns earlier, had I done so I think I'd have finished the game off around 1500AD. Still, it was a good win.

Spoiler :

Built the Parthenon in 600AD, MoM in 740AD and got Lib in 1090AD for Nationalism. Built the Taj in 1180AD and stayed in an extended Golden Age until the end of the game. Mansa did his usual trick of offering to be a peace vassal in 1210AD to go for a culture win, usually I'd say no but he was trading quite heavily with Bismarck and Darius so I accepted and then kept changing his research to slow the tech rate down.

Cuirr-rushed Darius in 1360AD and killed him in 1460AD. Boudicea also DoW'd him one turn after I did - I took Darius' last city just as Bod's stack of Elepults was about to take it so took the opportunity to DoW her on the same turn I finished Darius off and killed her stack in one go. She capitulated in 1505AD and then I just ran through everybody else. Charlie capitulated in 1540AD, Giggles in 1560AD and finally Bismarck in 1580AD. Bismarck had a few Grenadiers, everybody else was Muskets and Medieval Units and no match for Cuirrs and Cavalry.

Screenshots and Final Score Below:

Spoiler :

@GiantWolfman - Thanks for another good map. If anybody is looking to go up a level then this map is a good one to do it on.

 

[KingODuckingham]

Hi, forum newbie here. I have played civilization games since civ 2, but after spending a long time with ciV I am coming back to IV, and found this site while looking for cool mods. I also love the base BTS though, so I downloaded this game as my first attempt at monarch. I played the first 100 turns, but now I'm going to stop and see what advice you guys can give me, because I sure need it. I'm doing "ok" but it doesn't feel optimal even to me, and I'm not good at noticing optimizations.

I do know this though, already. My city placement is pretty garbage. Nothing I can do about that now though, just trying to work with what I've got, which is 6 cities.

For some reason the game keeps telling me "screenshot failed" when I try to take a screenshot, but I'll post the save in case someone wants to check it out.

 

[Giant Wolfman]

@Choggy
Nice game! Took a look at your end game save, couple small thoughts:

Spoiler :

Mansa built AP, which as far as I can tell is Jewish. You have a lot of Jewish cities, and spiritual temples are so cheap that the 2 hammers alone pay off quickly.

Also, I know at this point the game was probably well in hand and you were probably focused on foreign rather than domestic policy, but you have two GS and a GA sitting around in Delhi, with your next GP due in 5 turns to be likely (90+%) another GS. I know at that point it didn't matter, but a merchant or priest or something would've allowed you to make use of those other guys.

And looking at your 350AD save, it looks like GP generation was a little slow anyway (only 1 GProphet & 1 GS at 350AD when you had three early wonders). Especially when you took the time to build pyramids, and oracle'd CoL. If you're going to do both of those, you should be running specialists to get the return on investment of the pyramids for Representation and CoL for caste. And frankly you should probably be running scientists somewhere even if you weren't in Rep & caste.
EDIT: Just saw that in some of your southern cities you are running some scientists. My bad, didn't see that first time through. Still, 150AD for first scientist seems a little slow to me.

@Kingoducks

Tried to open your save, but alas, I don't have Better AI so I'm not sure how I would be able to unfortunately :/

 

[Choggy]

@Giant Wolfman

Spoiler :

Cheers for the feedback. I see in your game you Elepulted Darius, I was really tempted to do the same because Elepulting is something you can't do very often and it's good fun but decided against it bacause I'd already used a lot of hammers to build the Mids and I needed to settle those northern cities. How many did you have to build to kill Darius off?

Regarding the spare GP's in Delhi - I finished a 48-turn golden era on the turn I won the game, those specialists were what I had left over. You're right though, I should have got another GM out instead of the GS. It didn't matter in this game but I don't think Emperor will be so forgiving so will need to plan my GP-generation a bit better next time. And not building cheap AP temples was just daft. The hammer investment alone would have paid for itself in no time

 

[Giant Wolfman]

@Choggy

Spoiler :

I built 13 cats and 12 elephants, in addition to some support axes. Lost 10 cats and 3 elephants. So not *too* big, but I also took two peace treaties to heal up, so that cut back the number I needed. I would probably have been better off building more and killing him quickly, but it worked out fine in the end.

And, well if you just finished a 48 turn golden age, I guess that's ok

 

[Marcvs Avrelivs]

This is to be read while listening to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ou9GMaUYOw

1665 AD conquest win:

Spoiler :

Sure enough, my guess was right...

Threatening stacks approached Pataliputra, and Asoka took care that his citizens worked hard enough day and night to defend against the Persian threat

The city was held on long enough, until the cavalry (or, to be more appropriate, cuirassiers) arrived....

A temporary ceasefire was established with the Persian shah, who willingly complied after seeing the amassing of elite horseborne warriors in Pataliputra, but the glare in Asoka's eyes cannot be mistaken. He made a vow on his return to the Imperial Palace, We will be back.

Sure enough, several turns later, when a sufficient of horseborne elites were amassed, the perfect excuse for a redeclaration of war posed herself:

...meanwhile, Asoka inched his way slowly to the introduction of tiny grooves in his soldiers' muskets: what that did, he had no idea, but he was willing to try. Still, he had a long way to go, and for now, his cuirassiers would suffice.

The trumpets blared: "The horseborne are here", screamed the citizens of Ectabana:

Asoka was lenient to the Persians, even though his soothsayers told him that the Persians conquered and enslaved Indians in some far-off parallel universe.

What convinced Asoka to be merciful,however, were not the people.... but this:

Meanwhile, Mansa broke his oath of fealty to Darius and even though Asoka was itching to have a go at Mansa and remove his head, a ceasefire was nonetheless necessary as to focus on one target at a time.

Ectabana subsequently fell to a Persian attack (Asoka, of course, grudgingly accepted the fact that he placed too few a garrison), but was immediately retaken.... before falling once more into Persian hands. What did Asoka decide to do then? Umm... Well... Let's just say that Ectabana no longer exists and that the road to it is line with crosses

However, there IS one consolation for the humiliation.... and that is the fact that Darius is now appointed as the royal toilet cleaner

Even so, a little tiny thing made Asoka's blood boil... Right beside where Ectabana is, a blotch began to form:

Asoka was not amused.

However, Asoka was a man who never broke his promises, and, true to his word, war was declared on Mansa Musa in AD 1400.

Cuirassiers swarmed all over the Malinese heartland, burning such large cities as Kumbi Saleh and Djenne, which happened to be the Jewish and Confucian holy city (Kong Miao is the Confu temple, right?). Even tiny,fledgling towns, like Walata, faced the full wrath of Emperor Asoka.

Upon arrival at Timbuktu, however....

Asoka reasoned that it's not Mansa Musa's city, but the city of the Hindu gods. Thus, he kept it.

Mansa Musa's final city now remains on a legendary island fortress, where only large wooden houses can penetrate it.

Asoka had no wooden houses that can float the high seas, so he grudgingly took Mansa as the royal dancing fool instead.

Finally, one person was left on the western front. "Boudicca," Asoka asked, "Wouldn't it be better for the both of us if we joined our empires by, I don't know, say, marriage?"

At that, Boudicca slapped Asoka and told him to exit her royal palace, which happened to be a home that resembled this:

Asoka considered this an act of war.... to which he responded accordingly

However, Boudicca got herself an ally:

Still, nothing major from King Burger arrived... which gave Asoka enough time to do this:

...and razed another two along the way. Boudicca capitulated and asked if the position of chief royal wife was still available. Asoka replied no, but the position of chief royal slave was still vacant. Boudicca refused, but when Asoka raised his hand in command, Boudicca immediately bowed low and accepted her fate.

Cont.

Spoiler :

The Buddhist apostolic palace, meanwhile, tried to force peace between the Holy Romans and Indians through a resolution. Asoka said no, even though he willed for a quick respite to arm his cuirassiers with this military breakthrough called 'rifels.' With these 'rifels' (Asoka's intelligence, and therefore spelling ability, was inversely proportional to the amount of horseborne he owned) he hoped to dominate the entire southern part of pangaea.

The resolution was passed and Asoka received ten turns in which he can crank out as much cavalry as his heart desired. When the peace treaty was invalidated, the fruits of his exploitation of manpower whipped was this:

...so, it was unsurprising that Charlemagne accepted Indian sovereignty only a few turns later. He was appointed as the new manager of a fast food chain Asoka established in honour of his bravery (or rather, stupidity) in angering the Great Emperor:

War was in place, however, with Gilgamesh, who had a defensive pact with the King of Burgers, as he is now known. This lion-king also dragged in to war the Buddhist dalai lama, also known as Bismarck.

Asoka was not amused

As payback, Asoka's cavalry rampaged the German heartland, burning every city on their path... including the one that housed the Apostolic Palace:

It was said that Asoka drank merrily as his men danced to the fires of the Apostolic Palace. Any Buddhist fundamentalist who tried to break in was shot immediately. The men were massacred while the women and children were... well, Asoka was meant to enslave them but then decided that he would surround his army's camp and line the streets with wooden stakes, on each a citizen of Cologne.

The carnage was too much for Bismarck and he capitulated. He was subsequently beheaded and another man, who was an impersonator, installed as a puppet king.

The horde then regrouped in Nuremberg to replenish their numbers. The lion-king became a puppy-king as he saw this approach his cities:

The cavalry were positioned in order to be able to take both Uruk and Kish in one turn. They did and both were burned in the name of Asoka:

Gilgamesh capitulated but Asoka decided that he disliked this puppy-king: he was turned into a human pincushion by Asoka's outdated homeguard, consisting of longbowmen and archers. The war was over and Asoka began the journey home, leaving his army and taking no one as to speed up his coronation as Emperor of the World.

Asoka, on his route home, suddenly saw all the empires he had ruined, all the bodies that lay, still unburied. A vision of Bodhidarma appeared to Asoka on the road, the man apparently crying. Asoka did not recognise him and his guards were not present so he drew his sword. "Out of my way, fool!" he exclaimed. The man continued to weep and did not budge: Asoka raised his sword and struck him. The blade did not cut but merely passed through the spirit. Asoka's eyes widened and the ghostly apparition raised its head towards him. Asoka immediately recognised him from the countless statues that dotted the Apostolic Palace he burnt. Suddenly, he looked around. To his surprise, he was back in his palace, but this cannot be, since he was in a different land.

He was confused. The stench suddenly hit him. All around him were bodies; bodies of dead soldiers, bodies of Buddhist priests, bodies of Bismarck and Gilgamesh (he smiled at the sight of them), bodies of dead, innocent men, flogged to death, bodies of women, some grotesquely mutilated, and bodies of children, heads blown apart by musket fire, even of babes, who were skewered as their mothers held them tight. Asoka cannot stand the sight: he wept. Bodhidarma approached him, a calm expression on his face, and laid a hand on his shoulder. He expressionlessly stated, "Behold, Asoka, the fruits of your empire."

The hand left his shoulder and when he opened his eyes, he was once more on the Royal Road, all alone, with his horse still waiting several metres from where he stood. Bodhidarma was gone and with him, all the bodies of dead men, women and children. Asoka wiped his tears and solemnly vowed that war shall no more plague his land, that no more blood will be shed, that peace and prosperity will mark the end of his rule.

He was enlightened.

In the end of the year 1665 AD, Asoka was proclaimed, not as Emperor of the World, but as 'He Who Regards Everyone with Affection.'

Excellent map and plenty of land to settle, assuming you rush for it. 'Twill be one of my memorable games

 

[JSS]

1510AD / Immortal / Conquest

Spoiler :

Bulbed engineering...

Spoiler :

...and killed everyone

Spoiler :

A bit late on the engineering date (2nd GE was late by ~15 turns), but it doesn't matter much on immortal because engineering is all that is needed to wipe the map.

 

[Smilingrogue]

Second attempt, Immortal, Normal Speed, No Huts, No Events. Upto 1 AD.
I learnt from the mistakes in my first attempt.

Spoiler :

Teched Bronze Working right away this time after Agriculture and settled Copper to the North as my second city. Barbs became a non-factor after that.

Settled 7 cities in quick succession, blocked off Darius and Charlemagne. (Charlie is pushing towards me and I lost a nice city site with Wheat and Incense to him, but he is sealed off towards the North, where I can still squeeze in three to four cities if needed.)

Teched worker techs and Aesthetics, traded well to stay at least within reach of the top guys. But Mansa seems to be running away with tech. It's only 1 AD and he can alread tech education. Is this normal for Immortal?

This is the state of the empire at 1 AD:
World tech overview:

Spoiler :

My tech situation:

Spoiler :

Diplomacy:

Spoiler :

Borders:

Spoiler :

Demographics:

Spoiler :

When running 100% I am actually top in GNP. Wonder how long that lasts? I have a settler sitting next to the dry corn to the North of cap ready to settle my eighth city next turn.
As for strat resources, I have two copies of Copper (1 sold to Charlie) 1 Iron and two sources of Jumbos. I have pyramids building in Bombay, but I am not sure I want them. I don't have Caste to take advantage of specialists and the city I am about to settle will turn into GT draft city.

Overall, I am not doing terribly. I think I am hanging in there. My biggest problem is I have no clue what to expect from Immortal AI. Where do I go from here? Should I just settle peacefully or start teching towards military stuff? I would really appreciate any feedback from players who are used to Immortal AI and can give me pointers on timing for some important benchmarks like when Lib is likely to go, what wonders to pursue and just pointers on what I am doing right, wrong or where I am being just plain stupid.

 

[JSS]

@Smilingrogue

Spoiler :

Seeing as you're teching machinery and there are no horses available, I assume you're going for engineering. I think it's very doable. You can probably attack around 500AD.

In general, you should make the decision of what you're going to do once you've scouted your surroundings and strategic resources (are there horses? iron?). In this case engineering should be the obvious path.

I wouldn't have settler Agra and Varanasi, because
1) They're getting in Charlemagne's face, resulting in border tension
2) There are more high-priority spots to get up earlier (the 2 fish + corn site, deer + iron).

I would start making xbows and elephants while waiting for engineering, and once engineering is finished, whip a bunch of trebs and attack Charglemagne.

About the lib date, usually it's safe to get it around 900AD. In this case with Mansa it will probably go way earlier, but it shouldn't matter.

 

[Smilingrogue]

@Smilingrogue

Spoiler :

Seeing as you're teching machinery and there are no horses available, I assume you're going for engineering. I think it's very doable. You can probably attack around 500AD.

In general, you should make the decision of what you're going to do once you've scouted your surroundings and strategic resources (are there horses? iron?). In this case engineering should be the obvious path.

I wouldn't have settler Agra and Varanasi, because
1) They're getting in Charlemagne's face, resulting in border tension
2) There are more high-priority spots to get up earlier (the 2 fish + corn site, deer + iron).

I would start making xbows and elephants while waiting for engineering, and once engineering is finished, whip a bunch of trebs and attack Charglemagne.

About the lib date, usually it's safe to get it around 900AD. In this case with Mansa it will probably go way earlier, but it shouldn't matter.

Thanks for the tips.

Spoiler :

I settled Agra and Varanasi before I realised Charlie was there. I didn't explore too far south and wanted to secure Ivory and the Agra settler was going for the Wheat and Incense spot when Charlie's borders suddenly popped, so I just took the Copper spot.

Isn't it better to hit Darius? He is not a unit-spammer like Charlie, only Mansa likes him and is a heathen.

 

[JSS]

Spoiler :

I settled Agra and Varanasi before I realised Charlie was there. I didn't explore too far south and wanted to secure Ivory and the Agra settler was going for the Wheat and Incense spot when Charlie's borders suddenly popped, so I just took the Copper spot.

Isn't it better to hit Darius? He is not a unit-spammer like Charlie, only Mansa likes him and is a heathen.

Spoiler :

You're right about Darius. I only noticed that Darius was pleased and Charlemagne cautious towards you, but missed the religious situation. Charlemagne should get up to pleased at some point.

With that, I think a decent plan would be to kill/vassal Darius and Mansa because of the reasons you mentioned. Also make them stop trading with the jews once you've capped them, and make them help you research rifling and/or military tradition and/or steel for you so that you can clean up the rest of the continent.

 

[pepe26]

Woo! My favourite leader! I have been waiting for this game to move up a level.
I think I will just skip Emperor and jump straight upto Immortal. Will play this slowly and post asking for help regularly as I am going to need it.

Edit: There appear to be Floodplains to the South East. Best move seems to be warrior to the forest in the SW and then settle 2 West, riverside with both cow and Corn in first ring.

Edit 2: Warrior 1 NW is a better move. I am a dum-dum.

how the hell can you like asoka?! he is ORGANIZED (worst trait in the game imho) and spiritual, which can me nice at time but not that great either...

his UU ist mediocre (just dont waste worker turns and you'll be jsut as strong) and also a mediocre UB (comes late, usually lots of happiness by then)

also he starts with mysticism, the weakest starting tech...

now again, why, oh why, would you like him as a leader?

 

[Kingjester1]

how the hell can you like asoka?! he is ORGANIZED (worst trade in the game imho) and spiritual, which can me nice at time but not that great either...

his UU ist mediocre (just dont waste worker turns and you'll be jsut as strong) and also a mediocre UB (comes late, usually lots of happiness by then)

also he starts with mysticism, the weakest starting tech...

now again, why, oh why, would you like him as a leader?

Asoka is a very strong leader. The Fast Worker is THE best unit in the game: it's always useful and it saves turns very, very early. Keep in mind CIV, like all economy based strategy games, is all about generating output as fast as possible. Saving turns early generates exponential advantages over time, so being able to move and chop/improve in one turn in almost any circumstance is extremely powerful. The UB is a little weak, but can be very useful in map types where you have to wage war for quite some time (esp. against the Statue of Zeus owner) or may have to defy diplo resolutions.

The traits are also rock solid. Spiritual is extremely useful and allows much more micro play over when your civ is focusing on at any given time. Using this effectively is hard, but it can be extremely useful to swap between GP focus, economy focus, and military focus back and forth at will. You also get the most flexible diplo possible, as you can easily switch civics and religions for temporary boosts with your neighbors. Organized goes very well with SPI as you will likely be shifting to medium and high upkeep civics often, so reducing the upkeep is a nice bonus that will be with you the entire game (plus cheap lighthouses, courthouses, and factories can be really useful, if a bit situational).

 

[pepe26]

worker turns are a resource for themselves that need to be valued and taken care of... agreed
the benefits of a fast worker are much less pronounced when you compare correct worker micro to fast-worker fueled economies than if you compare weak worker micro to the fast-worker fueled eco... but ok, for the sake of argument and since the unit comes so early and since ive heard top players praise the fast worker, too, lets agree on that at least.

but come on, name one trait that is less useful than ORGANIZED please. and honestly, I see no synergy between organized and spiritual whatsoever... philosophcal and spiritual have a far greater synergy (=> gandhi) and also philosophical is much more usefull than oraganize. period. (god, i'm just realizing how this comes off as such a high-horse attitude... sorry, dont mean to do this, i'm just discussing in my usual, sometimes provocative manner )

 

[Doshin]

Organized is just fine. People will debate the merits of different traits so long as there are people to play the game, but I'd say that there are three broad tiers:

Top: Philosophical, Industrious, Financial
Bottom: Aggressive, Protective, Imperialistic
Middle: Everything else

Organized might be a better trait on high levels where maintenance is much worse... I'm not sure. Either way, Lighthouses, Courthouses, and Factories are all important buildings, and you receive a discount there. Since Courthouses and Factories are fairly expensive, the double production speed is a bigger saving than you'd think (whereas, e.g., double production speed on a Temple is hardly game-breaking).

 

[Doshin]

Also, I gave this game a play through and...

Spoiler :

Bismarck marched a stack to attack me in 800 BC. Since Charlie was plotting too, almost certainly on me, I gave up

I might give it another go over the weekend.

 

[pepe26]

at least AGG or PRO serve as catalyst for early one-big punch strats... ORG doesnt ever

 

[Kingjester1]

worker turns are a resource for themselves that need to be valued and taken care of... agreed
the benefits of a fast worker are much less pronounced when you compare correct worker micro to fast-worker fueled economies than if you compare weak worker micro to the fast-worker fueled eco... but ok, for the sake of argument and since the unit comes so early and since ive heard top players praise the fast worker, too, lets agree on that at least.

but come on, name one trait that is less useful than ORGANIZED please. and honestly, I see no synergy between organized and spiritual whatsoever... philosophcal and spiritual have a far greater synergy (=> gandhi) and also philosophical is much more usefull than oraganize. period. (god, i'm just realizing how this comes off as such a high-horse attitude... sorry, dont mean to do this, i'm just discussing in my usual, sometimes provocative manner )

It's cool, I totally agree that Philosophical is better than Org

Micro play with Fast Workers is better than micro play with standard Workers simply by virtue of shaving off turns. The earlier turns saved, the bigger than advantage over time.

Organized is one of those passive kind of traits that benefits you all the time, but my play style favors big empires. With SPI, I like switching civics a lot so halving the maintenance costs associated with running those empires and expensive civics is handy. ORG is one of those traits that is more useful on higher diffs due to the higher penalty for upkeep, but it is not as strong as other traits like FIN and PHI.