Speakeasies

[Rystic]

Just an idea I wanted to throw out there, a building for Council of Esus:

Speakeasy, +10% , +2

That's it. I know there are hundreds of suggestions for CoE. And I know that espionage is somewhat forbidden territory for FFH. But I have a few reasons for this:

1) The computer understands espionage. Add in a spy unit, and the AI will probably be able to use it.

2) It's a concept that can really branch out. Esus has this whole theme of paying for miracles, but the only miracle you pay for is to spread it. Speakeasies could let you pay other miracles (like giving a unit CoE, so you don't have to reload if your heroes don't get it).

3) Thematically, it really plays well with the "secret war" theme. You have LoS on enemy cities, which means you're already spying on them.

4) Even with the new Esus promotions, it's seriously underpowered. There are times I think "Council of Esus, The Wonder" was more useful than "Council of Esus, The Religion".

5) Council of Esus is a religion in Fall From Heaven the same way Yojimbo is a summon in Final Fantasy X. It's something you pay for to do, and it does the job well when used correctly, but you never get over the sinking feeling that something is lacking. I've always felt espionage in FFH would be interesting, but I think it needs to be Esus exclusive.

Any thoughts? Or suggestions to the Speakeasy?

 

[Quetz]

Totally agree with espionage in FFH, simply for the fact that as you pointed out, the AI is already decent at it. Not sure about Esus only though, I'd prefer neutral/evil only or something like that.

 

[Rystic]

Totally agree with espionage in FFH, simply for the fact that as you pointed out, the AI is already decent at it. Not sure about Esus only though, I'd prefer neutral/evil only or something like that.

I think espionage should feel a bit exclusive. Also, Esus needs the boost badly.

 

[Valkrionn]

I agree that it should go to Esus, but I think that at the very least Svartalfar and Cualli should have an affinity for it.

 

[zup]

Bring back espionage points, but eliminate spy units, too much micromanagement. A compromise would be that the spy does not return to capital after a successful mission.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I don't like espionage. I find the mechanics of this to be annoying.

 

[Rystic]

I don't like espionage. I find the mechanics of this to be annoying.

The mechanic was annoying in BtS because everybody did it. The game expected you to do it. Making it Esus exclusive would make it feel more unique.

 

[Tasunke]

Disclaimer: Im not being mean, I like the Idea.

If you do get it to work, use a decent name like "information council" or something. I could not maintain suspension of disbelief with a name like "speakeasies."

And no, I cannot speak easily whilst laughing.

That aside, I love the idea, and I agree it should be Esus only. Ive also thought of powering the Esus, and maybe their version of a "priest" could be an assasin with Shadow 2 and healing. While their "highpriest" could be shadow with "earthII?" added or something dimensional.

Could call these killer priests, Night Mistress-priest and Night Mother-high priest

 

[Rystic]

Disclaimer: Im not being mean, I like the Idea.

If you do get it to work, use a decent name like "information council" or something. I could not maintain suspension of disbelief with a name like "speakeasies."

And no, I cannot speak easily whilst laughing.

I chose Speakeasy off its definition:

Speakeasy, n., A place for the illegal sale and consumption of alcoholic drinks, as during Prohibition in the United States.

Speakeasies were illegal, underground taverns. They seem like the kind of place CoE would hold their meetings.

That aside, I love the idea, and I agree it should be Esus only. Ive also thought of powering the Esus, and maybe their version of a "priest" could be an assasin with Shadow 2 and healing. While their "highpriest" could be shadow with "earthII?" added or something dimensional.

Could call these killer priests, Night Mistress-priest and Night Mother-high priest

Esus doesn't really have priests. Its powers are inherited by units that follow it.

 

[Tarquelne]

Speakeasies were illegal, underground taverns. They seem like the kind of place CoE would hold their meetings.

I hope they like jazz music and dancing.

I think Speakeasy could work very well as part of a set, but not as "the" CoE building.

The problematical thing about "speakeasy" is it's VERY closely associated with American Prohibition, and so much of the illegality was simply the alcohol. The connotation is less "den of iniquity" and more "lively nightclub."

If the Disciples of Deception are supposed to be jaunty gangsters that works. But I picture them as significantly more grim and/or enigmatic. A building playing against that stereotype would be good, but if there's just 1 building I'd hope for a name/concept that's more representative.

 

[Rystic]

I hope they like jazz music and dancing.

I think Speakeasy could work very well as part of a set, but not as "the" CoE building.

The problematical thing about "speakeasy" is it's VERY closely associated with American Prohibition, and so much of the illegality was simply the alcohol. The connotation is less "den of iniquity" and more "lively nightclub."

If the Disciples of Deception are supposed to be jaunty gangsters that works. But I picture them as significantly more grim and/or enigmatic. A building playing against that stereotype would be good, but if there's just 1 building I'd hope for a name/concept that's more representative.

Then, to the Thesaurus!

 

[Iceciro]

I do support this idea. I'm one of the people who really didn't find the BTS espionage that annoying, except for the fact that the AI had the psychic ability to see how many points you were spending and would ramp up instantly to compensate.

Giving it to Esus might make me play Esus. Especially as Cabalim/Svaltffar. You could also give the Cualli some kind of espionage too.

 

[sharper_knives]

Then, to the Thesaurus!

Dive? Cabaret? Hell? Saloon? I know Tavern is already used, maybe it could have some sort of synergy with CoE?

 

[Rystic]

Dive? Cabaret? Hell? Saloon? I know Tavern is already used, maybe it could have some sort of synergy with CoE?

Since buildings can be given specific religion happiness bonuses, Gambling House, Tavern, and Smuggler's Port can be +1 with Esus, and Dungeon, Courthouse, and Ballistica -1 .

As for the Thesaurus search, I also have a liking to "Den" or "Sanctuary". I'm thinking of Sanctuary as a place where criminals could take refuge from the law.

 

[Vehem]

The main problem here is to do with the fact that BtS espionage relies on the ratio of points you have compared to your opponent. If you neglect espionage, your opponents can perform missions against you much more easily. If only one religion allows for espionage points, then that religion is going to be able to conduct missions very cheaply.

Having Spy units be Esus specific (replacing the Nightwatch - I'm not sold on Archers as being Esus-ish) whilst several buildings add to your espionage scores (Dungeons, Courthouses, Palaces, Barracks) would be a good fix, but it's actually looking at comparing Espionage and Security scores in that case.

I'd prefer to reimplement as a "Security" mechanic, with spy units being national and expensive. The buildings above providing security against spy missions, whilst the espionage buildings (Taverns, Dens, Thieves Guilds) provide bonus experience to spies created making for an interesting setup of risk vs reward (an experienced spy can perform missions in more secure cities, but at the risk of losing the experienced unit). Esus civs would receive a significant boost to their efforts (including a number of extra available spy units), but wouldn't need to be the only ones to have spies.

In a fantasy setting, it's less "secret organizations fighting each other" and more "bad people trying to do bad things whilst the city guard try to stop them". Thieves guilds may be rivals, but they are unlikely to become deeply involved in stopping the guild of another civ from stealing their government's secrets.

====

Short version - if we do reimplement espionage on any level, it won't be a case of "the buttons are there already, let's turn them back on". It'll be a ground-up design to suit FfH. That includes AI work - which is getting considerably more attention lately.

No plans to look at it imminently though...

 

[Iceciro]

At least that puts it into perspective for me. I like what you're doing here. Or thinking about doing.

 

[Tarquelne]

In a fantasy setting, it's less "secret organizations fighting each other" and more "bad people trying to do bad things whilst the city guard try to stop them". Thieves guilds may be rivals, but they are unlikely to become deeply involved in stopping the guild of another civ from stealing their government's secrets.

That's just what they tell the stupid swordsmen and the stuck-up wizards.

But I've already said t

 

[Honor]

Uh-oh, I think someone wants to silen

 

[Iceciro]

As long as you don't say candleja

 

[sharper_knives]

As long as you don't say candleja

Tch, you have to say Candlejack's entire na