Spearman VS tank

[painkiller]

In a game I played a fortified spearman was standing in my way on a hill. My tanks rushed through enemy lands, taking enemy cities but this little spearman was annoying me so I attacked him and lost a tank.

Since when is it possible to beat tanks with wooden sticks? In WW2 polish cavalry charged against german panzers because they had been told that the panzers were made of paper. They were wrong....

What I'm saying is that obsolete ancient units should never win against modern units like tanks.


P.S. Upgrading your spearman is a good option as long as the A.I does that. As for the Spearman VS tank... It's like a german Tiger 2 (WW2) fighting against zulu warriors. Who would win? Also... Why not replace the modern policedepartment with a bunch of spearman patroling the streets since they are so effective...

 

[Dell19]

I think a missed point in this arguement is that spearmen should no longer exist. Maybe at certain points in the game ancient units should forcefully disbanded or upgraded to a low technology unit that is at least slightly modern. It would then be necessary to work out how to implement this. Perhaps if spearmen also lost their peace keeping value as well as their combat value so that it only made sense to disband them?

 

[rcoutme]

I think that losing its peacekeeping value is a good start. However, I would go further and take away its ability to capture a city. You could still allow it to attack, defend and capture workers, but guys with stone axes or bronze spears should not be allowed to terrorize a modern metropolis.

Historically, this is especially true in NYC and LA. Can you imagine what would happen to a modern army unit (nevermind some Zulu's with spears) if they tried to occupy one of those cities? The residents would have more firepower than several infantry divisions (given all the guns and other munitions private citizens own).

 

[Dell19]

Allowing some little use is quite a nice idea. Not sure how to overcome the problems of ancient armies that still have a combat use for longer than standard units. I guess they could have an extended period of use before their combat stats disappeared, perhaps two or three extra tech levels.

 

[rcoutme]

My original suggestion, btw, and I still stick to it, is to double the combat stats of a future-era unit versus a past era unit. Thus, the spearman would not be defense 2 versus tank 16 attack. The tank is two eras ahead so it would be 2*2*16, or 64 vs the spearman. The reason for giving the multiple is to allow the affects on civilians to remain the same. Otherwise, the a/d numbers could just be modified, but since the civilians and buildings have defense numbers, if you mod all the units, the civilians are either unkillable in the AA (somewhat unrealistic) or unsurvivable in the modern eras (very unrealistic).

 

[Garbarsardar.jr]

I agree with rcoutme. BTW polish cavalry never attacked Panzers in the open you can see (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/polcamp.htm).

 

[LLXerxes]

What is this doing in Civ4 ideas and suggestions.
THe spears are not just wooden dowells, they have sharp metal tips that can penetrate the outside of the tanki, and that could lead to destroyed machenery! Then the spearmen get up, open up the door the tank, and kill the guys inside!
Simple, I think!

 

[rcoutme]

Simple, I think!

Ok, let's rent a Sherman tank with ordnance, I'll be in the Sherman with a full crew and you can have a spear. Let's try it out and see how it works!

 

[LLXerxes]

Ok, let's rent a Sherman tank with ordnance, I'll be in the Sherman with a full crew and you can have a spear. Let's try it out and see how it works!

Good idea!
But do you understand now why it works like that?

 

[Denarr]

The suggestion that LLXerxes made was a valid one.
Remember that a Spearman unit isn't just one guy standing all by himself.
Several Spearmen working together could take out a tank or two, especially if they have a city to hide in and are prepared for the tanks (ie. they're fortified).
The chances aren't good, and usually the tank will win. But if you have enough Spearmen in the city, it'll take a lot of tanks to take 'em out, especially if the Spearmen have been organized into an army or three.

[Edit] Thanks for the correction, LLXerxes, I have no idea how that f got in there.

 

[LLXerxes]

The suggestion that LLXerxesf made was a valid one.
Remember that a Spearman unit isn't just one guy standing all by himself.
Several Spearmen working together could take out a tank or two, especially if they have a city to hide in and are prepared for the tanks (ie. they're fortified).
The chances aren't good, and usually the tank will win. But if you have enough Spearmen in the city, it'll take a lot of tanks to take 'em out, especially if the Spearmen have been organized into an army or three.

Exactly!
I was gonna post that but I thought you guys would find out on your own!
And no offence, but it is LLXerxes

 

[Gengis Khan]

My original suggestion, btw, and I still stick to it, is to double the combat stats of a future-era unit versus a past era unit. Thus, the spearman would not be defense 2 versus tank 16 attack. The tank is two eras ahead so it would be 2*2*16, or 64 vs the spearman. The reason for giving the multiple is to allow the affects on civilians to remain the same. Otherwise, the a/d numbers could just be modified, but since the civilians and buildings have defense numbers, if you mod all the units, the civilians are either unkillable in the AA (somewhat unrealistic) or unsurvivable in the modern eras (very unrealistic).

So the first Civ to Fuedalism suddenly has an 8/4/1 unit until everyone else gets pikes? I think I'll pass.

 

[Dell19]

It could be based on the amount of technologies. So if there were 10 techs between two units then you would get a particular combat bonus rather than based on a fixed border time where the first one to cross it gets a huge advantage.

I don't buy into the whole idea of spearmen being able to defeat a unit of tanks. You can pretend that they can build traps etc but essentially you are giving them extra skills that they weren't built with and trying to modernise them for no cost. Ideally ancient units could no longer be used militarily in the modern age.

 

[Jon Shafer]

It's not as though Spearmen would really exist around the time of Tanks, so try to think of them as irregulars which do have some modern (but very poor) weapons.

Besides, it's not as though Spearmen defeat Tanks every day. Quit complaining.

 

[Gogf]

So the first Civ to Fuedalism suddenly has an 8/4/1 unit until everyone else gets pikes? I think I'll pass.

I think they all get the 8.4.1.

@Dell's first post in this thread p): What if you are playing Chieftain, and they still don't have Natioanlism, and have no resources, while you have tanks?

 

[Dell19]

I'm not complaining about spearmen winning as I see this as part of how the game has been created, I just don't think they should exist or at least have some sort of name and graphical change.

 

[WS78]

Not to trample the whole idea, but the use of combat values is to represent the unit's military value. The diffirences between spearman and pikeman represents their equipment, training and lastly their organization. For many it is still a pickle to imagine what the units represent.

In support of LLXerxes, do you really think that spearman only rely on spears and infantry on shotguns, only because they are shown like that in the game?

Today a group of guys with spears is still a threat. Not a big one but still.

 

[t3h_m013]

somone mentioned just changing the unit name but keeping the values. so its not a spearman (i.e. a man with a pointed stick) but a low attack/offense unit of something. a militia. for example.

civilians with hankeys and spirits can render tanks useless after all.

 

[Tomoyo]

I think it would be possible for a spearman to defeat a tank. In civ, a "Tank" is a group of guys who ae trained and equipped with tanks. If you kill thm before they get in the tank, the tanks don't work.

 

[ShADoW^HawK]

I think what they should do is make it so that the AI values upgrading over just building new units. Or, at least disbanding old units, especially if they have no more use (like no more area nearby to explore with).

Also, what they could do is instead of multiplying the ADM factor, they could have a percentage of winning/losing a battle, and that would be modified depending on how advanced both units are. So, for example, the modern armor would have 95% chance of beating a spearman, while only a 25/30% chance of beating a mech infantry.

But, still, the AI should value upgrading units much higher.