Jon Shafer
Civilization 5 Designer
You can already upgrade units to lower level modern ones (Guerillas, TOW Infantry, etc.).
Spearman VS tank
- Thread starter painkiller
- Start date
Gogf said:@Dell's first post in this threadp): What if you are playing Chieftain, and they still don't have Natioanlism, and have no resources, while you have tanks?
It would be based on their own technology level so if spearmen are a current unit for them, then they can keep them.
Ryth
Chieftain
Having lost an elite panzer to a conscript warrior, the idea of having some sort of minor upgrade appeals. Perhaps when there are three options above (ie Spearman> Pikeman> Musketeer> Rifleman) then the spearmen automatically change to the current level of warrior upgrades (medieval infantry, guerillas). Maybe even just two levels would work.
ShADoW^HawK
The Shanksta Ganksta
I was saying that the AI should highly value upgrading their units. They don't value it too much, or else you wouldn't see spearman around when people are in the Industrial Age. I know that there are basic upgrades for each age, but the AI has to value upgrading more.
Ryth
Chieftain
I agree that the AIs need to focus on upgrades, but unless you let them have the Art of War and Darwin's Wonders then they cost alot more to upgrade than for the players. Still, especially for Militaristic civs, it should be more highly valued.
Jon Shafer
Civilization 5 Designer
The chances of losing an elite Panzer to a conscript Warrior are well under 0.001%.Ryth said:
Not something I'm worried about as a major game imbalancer...
Neurospasm
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2003
- Messages
- 8
I think they should revert back to unit stats used in Civ2. Firepower and hitpoints really mark the difference between units of different eras. Not quite so in Civ3.
It's still possible for a spear to defeat a tank. (I just had a 4/4 spear defeat my 4/4 tank in a game last night - in a size 4 turndra city no less). But, the occurences are still very rare. You could say that the tank was frozen in the tundra during a freak storm. 
ShADoW^HawK
The Shanksta Ganksta
I think that this issue is so unnecessary to change, since it's still POSSIBLE for a spearman to defeat a tank, just HIGHLY UNPROBABLE!!!
All that needs to be changed is for the AI to value upgrading units HIGHER than building new units.
All that needs to be changed is for the AI to value upgrading units HIGHER than building new units.
cpikey316_
Chieftain
No particularly relevant, but I remember this being a big problem in the original civilization too. Tanks and even battleships would lose to phalanx units.
I think there should be like 5 types of unit in the game and that they upgrade by themselves when they reach a certain era, that way we cant produce any spearman during the modern era but i have to say that a tank cannot take out a spearman in close range and the operator would have to go out of his tank to be able to engage it, so it is possible that a spearman can take on a tank but it isn't likely that they would destroy it.
cpikey316_
Chieftain
Couldn't a tank drive over a spearman? Wouldn't it be able to destroy a stack of ancient unit this way?
rcoutme
Emperor
w1184 is correct about the machineguns (although they are not mini, usually a .50 cal). In addition,, when I went through Officer Candidate School, we were told that should we be in tanks going up against infantry, we should mount Claymore mines on the outside. A Claymore, when detonated, sprays 750 ball bearings out in a fan shape wiping out all soft targets for 50m (and probably for 150m as well, actually).
When I play Civ3, I usually picture lesser units (i.e. spearmen, archers, et.al) in the modern age as units that would have the knowledge of how to use the technology they have but with late-model equipment. In other words, if my MA goes up against a musketman, I picture a group of troops that have AK-47's but could not produce them by themselves (i.e. purchased through international arms sales), are not very well trained with them, and have some other devices that may be effective against my modern armor (one or two large explosive devices per company). Otherwise, the odds make no sense at all.
For example, spearmen defending against modern armor are 2 vs. 24. That means that 1 in 13 times, the M1A1 Abrams tank unit would take (assuming regulars) 33% casualties! Now, I don't care what those spearmen did, the chances of them inflicting 33% casualties on an Abrams division would have to be far, far less than 1 in 13! Thus, one has to assume (just for the sake of stopping one's brain from oozing out the ears) that the spearmen have other weapons at hand.
When I play Civ3, I usually picture lesser units (i.e. spearmen, archers, et.al) in the modern age as units that would have the knowledge of how to use the technology they have but with late-model equipment. In other words, if my MA goes up against a musketman, I picture a group of troops that have AK-47's but could not produce them by themselves (i.e. purchased through international arms sales), are not very well trained with them, and have some other devices that may be effective against my modern armor (one or two large explosive devices per company). Otherwise, the odds make no sense at all.
For example, spearmen defending against modern armor are 2 vs. 24. That means that 1 in 13 times, the M1A1 Abrams tank unit would take (assuming regulars) 33% casualties! Now, I don't care what those spearmen did, the chances of them inflicting 33% casualties on an Abrams division would have to be far, far less than 1 in 13! Thus, one has to assume (just for the sake of stopping one's brain from oozing out the ears) that the spearmen have other weapons at hand.
You are probably right that they are meant to have gradually upgraded their skills but this isn't mentioned anywhere in the manual and the units still look like spearmen... So an idea would be to make these units appear modern over time so that there are less complaints.
rcoutme
Emperor
I agree, Dell19, it would have been nice if the Firaxis designers had suggested this themselves and it would be very, very nice for them to upgrade the pictures. I was just commenting that one has to give some lee-way for Civ3 in order to make sense of the combat system.
Trip said:
Wrong. It does in-game, and it does in real life. There are still tribes in the jungle, rainforest, deserts etc around the world - who doesn't have any high-tech equipment like tanks. This is also resembled in the game, as some civs might be in the ancient era while you are in the Modern Age.
akillias said:
Or he could just give full throttle and either run over the poor spearman, or drive away from him, turning the turret and blasting the bastard to smithereens. Another option is the extra mounted .50 cal(s) or the coaxial machine gun, which both would turn a Spearman into swiss cheese even at close range.
I'd say that a tank (especially a modern) would take out Spearmen in 99.99% of the time. The only thing that could make a primitive Spearman take out a tank would be to attack in a group of about 1000 'soldiers'. Or, if they had invented the Wheel, they could've crafted a huge (and I mean really HUGE, like 2-3 stories high) stone wheel, and rolled it from a hill, hoping it would hit the tank
In short: Ancient Age units shouldn't stand a chance against Modern Era units - period. Maybe, just MAYBE - in like 1 of 500 opportunities, they would succeed in dispatching the tank.
Someone also mentioned that Spearmen would be able to kill a tank crew if they were outside their tank, however a) if they are strolling around outside their tank when engaging enemies they are complete idiots and b) they would most likely have (automatic) rifles for defense while being outside the tank.
Of course, if the tank is used for defense, the statement is somehow more valid
Commander Bello
Say No 2 Net Validations
The problem is not, that the tank might loose every 1000 turns vs the spear.
The problem is that this spoils the fun for many people.
And I agree, that under certain circumstances in real life a warrior might sneak into the camp of the tank platoon and kill the sleeping team. He could poison their food as well. He could even put something into the cannon.
All these things could be done.
But, hey.... how to do this with a whole tank division?
Everyone trying to explain how to take out a tank with merely just your hands and a wooden stick almost everytime refers to a highly trained, very disciplined unit of ancient soldiers, knowing perfectly about the weak points of something, which would have been regarded as some kind of monster or divine punishment for your sins. And then, it is a unit of ancient soldiers taking out *ONE* tank.
But in the game, it is a well equipped tank division, moving at full speed, firing with all guns, which is suddenly taken out by the equivalent of Roman legion, a Germanic berserker horde or whatever.
If an assumed Roman legion would be confronted with a modern tank platoon, the tanks just wouldn't release a single shot. They just would drive back and forth, and after some minutes the whole battle would be an episode in the history book.
That is, why most (at least, many) people are so upraged about this (very rare) incident.
So, I agree with anyone who claims that units from two ages past shouldn't *ever* be able to win against a modern unit. This just *is* a balancing issue.
The problem is that this spoils the fun for many people.
And I agree, that under certain circumstances in real life a warrior might sneak into the camp of the tank platoon and kill the sleeping team. He could poison their food as well. He could even put something into the cannon.
All these things could be done.
But, hey.... how to do this with a whole tank division?
Everyone trying to explain how to take out a tank with merely just your hands and a wooden stick almost everytime refers to a highly trained, very disciplined unit of ancient soldiers, knowing perfectly about the weak points of something, which would have been regarded as some kind of monster or divine punishment for your sins. And then, it is a unit of ancient soldiers taking out *ONE* tank.
But in the game, it is a well equipped tank division, moving at full speed, firing with all guns, which is suddenly taken out by the equivalent of Roman legion, a Germanic berserker horde or whatever.
If an assumed Roman legion would be confronted with a modern tank platoon, the tanks just wouldn't release a single shot. They just would drive back and forth, and after some minutes the whole battle would be an episode in the history book.
That is, why most (at least, many) people are so upraged about this (very rare) incident.
So, I agree with anyone who claims that units from two ages past shouldn't *ever* be able to win against a modern unit. This just *is* a balancing issue.
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