Special Units

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally posted by stormbind
As there are no images/records of parachuting Natter or any that have landed... it has been suggested that theory of parachuting was just something they told the pilots! :lol:

Has the aircraft ever been dismantled by a musseum?

As the parachute does not come out at the rear, how was the rocket/pilot supposed to avoiding colliding with it?


you fire the rockets, then jettison the front panel, then strap out, a chute deploys for the back half of the machine. As you are not strpped in you will fall out. Then, you open your chute....


Rather risky, yes. And it flew once or twice if the site I got that from is correct.....
 
I've been following this thread with bemused interest, and learning a whole new definition for fanatic. I used to get into really heated discussions like this about how to treat respiratory infections in cockatiel chicks or whether a pet bird's wings should be trimmed, but those were matters of life and death, literally. This is.. after all.. just ... a ... game!!

IIRC, this whole discussion started with the idea that the F-15 is not a realistic UU for America. Did anyone ever actually disagree with that starting premise? Hmm.

I am trying to gain some perspective on Civ III, and learn to view the combat units as more like pieces in a chess game. The attributes, movements, and strengths are arbitrary. You don't try to make sense of them, you just learn them. I am at a disadvantage in the game if I don't like attacking with cavalry (supposedly one of the better offensive units, especially in its time) because the death animation of the horse falling (and dying?) bothers me.

Realistically, there should be about a 50/50 chance of the horse (or elephant) surviving and returning to its stable (barracks?) every time a mounted unit is defeated. These trained mounts should then be able to be used in the creation of another unit for about 1/2 the cost, or something like that... Perhaps it shouldn't be a veteran, but certainly one can put a half-trained recruit onto a well-trained cavalry horse and have a new 'unit' that can go out and do some damage! ?

The whole spearman/tank thing is a fine example. Sgt York (whoever the heck he was) notwithstanding, no human being on foot that doesn't have a bazooka or rocket launcher could stand up to a tank. For that matter, anything less than a rifleman really shouldn't be able to do a whole lot of damage to an elephant. Well, maybe there are more than one spearman in our mythical "unit," but then how many elephants or tanks are in a "unit?" It might be more realistic if there were size factors. A tank or elephant should really have an attack bonus for size against any kind of a unit that is supposed to represent a human 'on foot.' A modern battleship should be able to overrun a galley or probably even a frigate, too. Isn't it really quite ridiculous to think of an old sailboat attacking one of our modern battleships? Although some of the sailors might actually get hurt; they'd be laughing too hard to remember to move out of the way of the cannonballs... There's no realistic fear factor, either. I'm betting than realistically, some RNG percentage of warriors and archers are going to turn tail and RUN at first sight of an elephant, or a modern tank.

And how much sense does it make that units who win battles get more hit points? Can soldiers and warriors who have experience take more damage? No, they are better at fighting and avoiding injury. So, really, veteran and elite units should have attack and defense bonuses, including a higher chance for not being hurt at all and/or a chance for completely destroying an enemy unit in one combat turn by having the experience to hit a fatal spot. A precision attack, so to speak.

I could go on and on and on and.. - and so could most of you. The point is, it is not really possible for the the game to be realistic, any more than chess or tic-tac-toe. So while we could perhaps all agree that the F-15 is a sucky UU and something like a minuteman or a buffalo soldier might serve the Americans better, arguing against it on the grounds that it isn't realistic is fairly pointless, IMHO.

I can hardly wait for the responses I will get to this post!! :cringe: :ripper: :lol:
 
heike: :lol:

the problems with combat you are adressing are such fundamental 'flaws' (flaws if you want a realistic simulatiuon) that they cannot be fixed I think. But i found myself reading your post and nodding all the time :thumbsup:
 
There is nothing wrong with the game. There is nothing wrong with the game. There is nothing wrong with the game.

Click your heels three times and you can be home in Kansas.

If there were something wrong with the game it would have been fixed in a patch.

I am from the government, I am here to help you.
I will respect you in the morning.
The check is in the mail.
 
Wot happens right... is the spearman which wos not forgotten by the generals is armed with grenades... which are dropped into the engine of the tank :crazyeye: :D
 
Originally posted by heikeott

And how much sense does it make that units who win battles get more hit points? Can soldiers and warriors who have experience take more damage? No, they are better at fighting and avoiding injury. So, really, veteran and elite units should have attack and defense bonuses, including a higher chance for not being hurt at all and/or a chance for completely destroying an enemy unit in one combat turn by having the experience to hit a fatal spot.
I agree in part. I don't see how a unit that has been in combat can possibly end up stronger... I mean, there will be injuries and fatalities... so the whole healing thing is a bit strange.

However, I do think that experience gained in battle should allow the civ to produce better troops.

So if everyone has archers, and one civ is particularly succesful - then they will learn more about archery and build better archers as a result... leading to veteran and elite units.

Conscripts should be more likely to run away, as they are more scared of the enemy - this could have some amusing results I think :)
 
Originally posted by stormbind
Wot happens right... is the spearman which wos not forgotten by the generals is armed with grenades... which are dropped into the engine of the tank :crazyeye: :D

:lol: there was a thread where someone collected theories on how this could work ;)
 
Oh, and BTW, I forgot to say...

And quite a bit of the game is the way it is for commercial (i.e. to increase sales) reasons, isn't it? I can imagine all you lot having a collective fit if America hadn't been included, but the USA is not really a civilization per se - it's a country! :nya:

:mischief::satan::mischief:

And you AMERICANS wouldn't have gotten the BOMB when you did if not for the GERMAN scientists who defected and gave it to you! Stick THAT in your peace pipe and smoke it!


:ar15: :help: :rocket:
(Yep, that's me in the middle! )
 
Originally posted by heikeott
:mischief::satan::mischief:

And you AMERICANS wouldn't have gotten the BOMB when you did if not for the GERMAN scientists who defected and gave it to you! Stick THAT in your peace pipe and smoke it!


:ar15: :help: :rocket:
(Yep, that's me in the middle! )

You can attack the Americans all you like, they make themselves a big target on a regular basis. Normally when they claim something as there own when it's clearly not. :mad:

I do agree that current-day USA is not a civilisation, and (with the exception of movie making) it has practically no culture - which might be why they aren't particularly popular in Europe. Besides, they will never export movies as good as James Bond :D

The native Americans have a much stronger claim to a place in the game! They occupied the entire north-america and had a very distinct cluture of their own.

They were not always backward, and are nothing to be ashamed of - perhaps the way the USA treated them is something to be ashemed of?!

Advancement may have slowed down on the continent for a few hunder years, but they were strong in the time of the Vikings - contact earlier in history may have given them a better deal; a possibility that the game promises any other civilisation.

The Aztecs are included, so why not the Red Indians who lasted much longer? Makes no sense. :mad:

The USA didn't appear until circa 1800 and shared a north-European culture (particularly UK/France/Netherlands).
 
Originally posted by heikeott
IIRC, this whole discussion started with the idea that the F-15 is not a realistic UU for America. Did anyone ever actually disagree with that starting premise? Hmm.
Actually I thought it started with the premise that UU's (all of them) are a crummy concept that ruins the game or something like that. Somewhere along the line I disagreed, but by then we were off on several tangents.
But... you're right on with your post. It's a game. Leaving archaic units in the game 2 or 3 eras after they could have been upgraded is not a good thing. I suspect Firaxis does it to piss us off. They read the "Spearman Killed My Tacnuke" posts and laugh.
I approach it this way. Those really aren't spearmen who just killed my tank. They're poorly equipped, poorly trained infantry, part of the army of a civilization too poor or too inefficient to have upgraded them properly. The fact that they look like spearmen I just ignore.
There's actually a fairly easy fix for this problem. When a unit is obsoleted by an advance in the game, it's graphic should change to look like the newer unit - not it's stats, just the image. So instead of spearmen defeating tanks, we'd have 1-2-1 Militia Infantry units defeating tanks. 15 year old German kids with Panzerfausts killed Russian tanks during the Battle of Berlin. Just not very many. Instead of Battleships taking hit points from Galleys, they'd be taking hit points from PT Boats. Same values, different graphic. Who could complain about that? Yeah, I know, someone would.
 
Where was the (US) American culture in 100BC? Perhaps they should only appear in the game after 1800AD? :)
 
Originally posted by heikeott
Oh, and BTW, I forgot to say...

And quite a bit of the game is the way it is for commercial (i.e. to increase sales) reasons, isn't it? I can imagine all you lot having a collective fit if America hadn't been included, but the USA is not really a civilization per se - it's a country! :nya:

:mischief::satan::mischief:

And you AMERICANS wouldn't have gotten the BOMB when you did if not for the GERMAN scientists who defected and gave it to you! Stick THAT in your peace pipe and smoke it!



How can you claim USA not a civ, but Russia, China, Rome, Japan, India, France Britian, etc, etc are? Every country has it's own particular traits, making it a civilization.

As an American, I'm proud to think that those Germans decided this was the better country and defected. The entire country was built on immigration from other places. Our diversity is why we've become what we are.
 
Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
you fire the rockets, then jettison the front panel, then strap out, a chute deploys for the back half of the machine. As you are not strpped in you will fall out. Then, you open your chute....

Sounds more like it wasn't well built and just fell apart :lol: ;)

Nose section falls off, followed shortly by the front panel.... poor man is now squashed against rear fussalage by extreme wind...

Then shute opens in rear... and poor man flies out of the front of the aircraft, probably upwards direction, at high altitude and maybe 600+ mph...

It's insane! :crazyeye:

They were never going to have an ace pilots, were they? Did any pilots survive?
 
Originally posted by taper


How can you claim USA not a civ, but Russia, China, Rome, Japan, India, France Britian, etc, etc are? Every country has it's own particular traits, making it a civilization.
The USA has no ancient culture to draw from. People seeking their heritage end up looking to England in the hope of finding Viking ancestors, or to Africa... except the natives, they know who they are.

Civilisation stems from the people who lived before globalisation which started in the 1400's. Russia, Mongolia, Briton, Gaul, Rome, Greece, Egypt... the names of some may have changed over time but the people draw stength and heritage from those cultures.

Originally posted by taper
As an American, I'm proud to think that those Germans decided this was the better country and defected. The entire country was built on immigration from other places. Our diversity is why we've become what we are.
The United Kingdom has greater diversity than the USA. It incorperates a large number of immigrants from all over the empire including Indians, Africans, Chinese and many more. Plus many German scientists from WW2, Dutch, Swedish, Norwegians and Belgians all wanting to fight Nazi Germany, and the UK has accepted more immigrants than any other nation from Yugoslavia and other war-torn regions.

The USA's belief that it is the "melting pot" is not accurate. You also have a lot more problems with racial tension than many Eurpean nations.
 
The current culture in the USA is the same culture of modern era that exists across the entire western world. It is not unique.

Pop-corn, Burger King, Television, Internet do not constitute a unique culture.
 
like it or not, though, most of the culture of the modern era IS american in origin - music - televison -fast food and all the other horrors .... though I'll grant you that a Dutch company called Endemol is responsible for starting that foul craze called reality tv with its original show, Big Brother.

*dives for cover":

But I digress - IMHO, the UU's add flavor to the game and, more importantly, affect gameplay very much. A game with an early Jag rush will play out very much differently than a panzer offensive.

Though from a realism perspective the Panzer should of course have been more powerful than regular tanks, not faster ..... *TROLL* :lol:
 
Originally posted by jack merchant
like it or not, though, most of the culture of the modern era IS american in origin - music - televison -fast food and all the other horrors .... though I'll grant you that a Dutch company called Endemol is responsible for starting that foul craze called reality tv with its original show, Big Brother.
I wouldn't say any of that is American. Music evolved, when it became "modern" is debateable and will be a matter of opinion but by in large, the UK exported more modern music like the Beetles, Spice Girls and countless others.

Even if this the UK hasn't exported the most, it would be hotly contested and is therefore not a unique culture.

The television was invented by a Russian but that's irrelivant. I don't think TV can count because it was quickly taken up by all western countries. Again, it could never be claimed to be unique to any one nation. Regardless of whether or not The Netherlands needs a good kicking for some shows ;), all nations have produced their fair share of programs and movies. The widest reaching network would probably be the BBC with it's world service making it the bigger export in recent history.

Fast food is also a matter of opinion. The Pizza is Italian, Fish and Chips is British, Those yummy herrings with onions in bread might be Dutch, Burger King is British. While some of these are fairly unique to certain regions, burgers and chips are most certainly not so that cannot be counted as part of any unique culture.

Originally posted by jack merchant

*dives for cover
:lol:

I am not totally against UU - I just think it's silly to have them linked with the name of the civilisation. This actually detracts from the games ability to give the Aztecs a world empire, or allow China to invent satelites. UU should be linked to geographical location/experience/resources in the same way that they really were!
 
Another example... Pennsylvania Papa Cake, or Funnel Cake (or or something) is considered unique and traditional... but it was imported from The Netherlands (Olly Ballen). If any Dutch want to look into this, they will see that the Americans messed it up a little but it's the same.

As I said before, in the age of globalisation there can be no unique culture... it has to be ancient, from when people didn't trade ideas every day.
 
I gotta admit, you guys are really good sports!! :thumbsup:

I suffer from mixed loyalties and although I am not sure I could go live somewhere else now, I do not always see the USA as being as wonderful as most natives seem to.

But anyway, wouldn't that be an interesting scenario to play? You're America, it's 1600 or so.. You start with settlers, workers, and enough defensive units to hold 2 or 3 cities) in 3 galleons off the eastern edge of North America.., and you have all the techs that the European civs do..
You must conquer or assimiliate the "savages" that hold the new continent (all cities very small & lots of horsemen?), deal with England who is furious with you and demanding tribute ( taxation? ;) ), and fight off the French and Spaniards who will steal as much of the New World away from you as they can. Could you do it?

Ahhh, somebody's probably already done that, if it's possible.
 
That scenario sounds really cool! :)

It could be done I think, with the "savages" (I think that's harsh!) being a civilization of their own with many UU (so they don't make standard things)

I might be slightly off on the dates :p

1600's would be rivalry between British, Dutch and French though, USA was most definately not around. They didn't fight bitter wars with the Red Indians either.

The Independent United Colonies circa 1795 was the first independent nation in that region. It's not quite the same thing as the USA but it's fairly close. Ofcourse, it would be allied (MP) with Britain.

If you started after the Revolutionary War, the French would be allies with the United Colonies instead of the British. Backstabbing little weasels! :lol:

"Washington is a known liar and a cheat. The Americans have attacked us before, I don't think we should trust them." ;)

It would seem that I have unintentionally killed this thread. There is much less resistance now than there was before :(
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom