Specialists and Great Scientists

[Delphi Augustus]

I've been dipping into manuallyadjusting my citizens and specialists recently, and have been wondering what people generally do with their specialists. I assume if one were going cultural they'd max out artists, but what about a domination or science victory? I suppose I have two major questions of people who know better than I do:

1. Should all specialist slots be used, especially after the +2 from specialists?
2. Great Scientists seem to be the best, so how do you ensure that you're only getting scientists? Just a lot of annoying "run other specialists until they're almost generating a great person then turn them off"?

I often hit #2 early, since I like to make some temples/markets/workshops but don't want to end up with artists/merchants/engineers. Though engineers aren't so bad.

 

[FeiLing]

CV --> Artists. Maybe a few scientists (especially if you can pop them on the same turn in one city as an artist) and 1-2 engineers won't harm either.
All other victory types: Scientists only + a few Engineers.
Do not put in Artists for their +2 beakers, that's definitely not worth it as any artist you produce will cost you a GS, which is worth 5000+beakers for the free tech. Note however that this basic rule might change with G&Ks if RAs get nerfed. Especially with the Freedom SP right branch where a specialist causes only 0.5 unhappiness and consumes only 1 food.
Merchants are super useless. Any tile worked us usually better or just leave them as unoccupied citizens. Those produce 1 hammer which is always very useful and also the 2 beakers with the rationalism SP.

 

[The Pilgrim]

In domination/science artists are useful when you want to have control over SP acquisition date. For example, if you want to unlock Rationalism after researching/bulbing Renaissance tech but before RA's resolve. Artists provide more flexibility than cultural city states. Engineers are useful when you have high pop, low production cities. But usually not at the expense of scientists.
And yes, pulling other specialists out before GP is born is the only way to avoid the increased cost of GS. In some marginal cases you can try to generate more than one GP at the same turn. It only applies to different types of GP in the same city.

 

[NukeAJS]

For culture victories, it can be worthwhile to get (or save) a couple of great engineers for the times where you want two or more wonders and have only one high-production city. An example that comes to mind is Cristo Redentor and The Eiffel Tower. Even if that doesn't happen, they can be used to fast-build wonders so that you don't have to dedicate your specialists to engineers and continue to run artists instead.

 

[Delphi Augustus]

Do not put in Artists for their +2 beakers, that's definitely not worth it as any artist you produce will cost you a GS, which is worth 5000+beakers for the free tech.

If I'm maxed out on scientists and I make sure that I don't ever pop a Great Artist (by removing them at the right times), couldn't it potentially be useful to get that extra culture (and science)?

In domination/science artists are useful when you want to have control over SP acquisition date. For example, if you want to unlock Rationalism after researching/bulbing Renaissance tech but before RA's resolve. Artists provide more flexibility than cultural city states. Engineers are useful when you have high pop, low production cities. But usually not at the expense of scientists.
And yes, pulling other specialists out before GP is born is the only way to avoid the increased cost of GS. In some marginal cases you can try to generate more than one GP at the same turn. It only applies to different types of GP in the same city.

Thanks for the tips, especially the culture/SP one! Also, I had never really considered the engineers for low-production cities. *facepalm* Also, is it correct that if I pop two great people on the same turn if the counters go up twice? i.e. get 100/100 for great artist and great scientist, it won't go to 200, but to 400, right?

For culture victories, it can be worthwhile to get (or save) a couple of great engineers for the times where you want two or more wonders and have only one high-production city. An example that comes to mind is Cristo Redentor and The Eiffel Tower. Even if that doesn't happen, they can be used to fast-build wonders so that you don't have to dedicate your specialists to engineers and continue to run artists instead.

Also good ideas and uses for great people! Would you generally build the improvement with those? It seems like the only one that's directly related to improving culture toward policies...

 

[budweiser]

Most of the ancient age wonders give engineer points. I wonder why that is?

If you are going for a cultural win, note that there are social polices what give a bonus to cities which have built wonders. This is a good use for your GEs.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Also, I had never really considered the engineers for low-production cities. *facepalm* Also, is it correct that if I pop two great people on the same turn if the counters go up twice? i.e. get 100/100 for great artist and great scientist, it won't go to 200, but to 400, right?

You'll go up to 300.
As for engineers, they aren't that helpful. You'd better work a mine even pre-Chemistry. However, if you want to generate one to rush build a wonder (it's the most common and arguably the best use of GE), you don't have much of a choice.

 

[joncnunn]

I've been dipping into manuallyadjusting my citizens and specialists recently, and have been wondering what people generally do with their specialists. I assume if one were going cultural they'd max out artists, but what about a domination or science victory? I suppose I have two major questions of people who know better than I do:

1. Should all specialist slots be used, especially after the +2 from specialists?
2. Great Scientists seem to be the best, so how do you ensure that you're only getting scientists? Just a lot of annoying "run other specialists until they're almost generating a great person then turn them off"?

I often hit #2 early, since I like to make some temples/markets/workshops but don't want to end up with artists/merchants/engineers. Though engineers aren't so bad.

#1 Not before you get a global bonus to specialists. (Before then just fill the spots for the great person type you want). The global bonus can be either playing Korea or getting that Rationalism policy or completing the commerce tree. Statue of Liberty and/or the freedom policy might also qualify.

But even then care must be taken not to bankrupt your economy, which you can do if you remove too many workers from tiles producing gold.

#2 By the time you hit a global bonus, you will have gotten several great people of your choice anyway. I guess if you want to micromanage you can do strategic building and selling Gardens, but personally I wouldn't bother with that level of mm.

 

[chazzycat]

IMO in a standard setting you want to be working all the good tiles before starting with specialists. By "good" I mean every hill, forest, jungle, every resource, and every riverside tile. Main exception is the 2 university scientists...those always get filled in ASAP, as soon as the city can afford to lose 2 productive citizens. Cities that have a lot of food but no production should work any engineers possible as well.

taking the right side of freedom changes everything though, and ESPECIALLY if you also have rationalism or SoL. In that case put them eveywhere! Just depends what kind of GP you want.

 

[Teadrinker]

Thanks for starting this topic, i've been puzzling over some of these questions too.

Some follow ups if i can:

For GP farming, what's a good number of city's to shoot for? Only one GP city isn't optimal, but too many restricts the size you can grow to because of unhappiness.

At what size do you start shifting to specialists? If i go too early growth stalls, but too late i can't get produce enough GPs.

I guess it's better to spread wonders around several city's to get the GP points, rather than build in one, so as well as good farm spots, you need plenty of production in GP city's, right?

What sort of rates for GP production are people getting? I seem to struggle to get much over +24 per turn.

Thanks for the help.

 

[chazzycat]

as many cities as you can afford to keep happy...the more cities you have the faster you will get GPs. personally I try to build universities/gardens in all riverside cities (around size 10-12 generally)

if you're going for science 6 cities is a pretty good target so each can build a spaceship part, maybe with 4 GP factories

24 is pretty good...timing is also important though, the earlier you get started the better

 

[joshua43214]

pretty much no matter what type of victory I am after, I always have atleast one science specialist running even if it means slightly lower gpt or hpt. The number of turns gained from a free tech far outweighs the number of lost gold or hammers in any decent city.

I try to give highest priority to river or lake shores even if it means I have to buy tiles to get a resource, and I like to run all science specialists in all cities if possible. In practice I usually only get that in 1 or 2 cities. I start them as soon a it is possible to do and not criple growth, income, production. If you manage things right, you can bulb out half of industrial through stealth

 

[KillingMeSoftly]

When you are on your way to research Education, get a couple cities up to 10 population. Build Universities in them, and immediately put specialists in those slots. If the city is growing slow after that, building a Granary is a good idea to pay for the costs of those specialists. Gardens are also a nice choice if the city is on a river. Before long, a wave of Great Scientists will be born and you can hoard them or spend them to push to a key tech. Once you get a few Great Scientists, you can remove the specialists so the cities grow faster. Eventually you'll unlock Public Schools which come with another specialist slot, and can begin a second wave. Combined with Research Agreements, you can really make some headway into the tech tree!

 

[claestw]

I've found that running on average at least on scientist per city (that is, run two in high-growth cities and run none in low food cities), building an Academy with the first GS and using the remainder for techs from Astronomy onwards, generally give a significant tech advantage over not using them at all. Especially useful when planning research this way to be able to bulb the key yield techs early and launch the empire into a new growth/gold/production peak.

I always want at least one GE, though. I try to find a spot with high food (preferably jungles) and low production for my trading post spam. With Universities and the Rationality tree, that city can over-tech my capital quickly if I save my GE for a National College there. Though such a site isn't always easy to come by, but as long as it's got enough two-food tiles, a river and at least two food resources, I go ahead with it. Gotta love the rivered jungles around those bananas.

 

[askia53]

I always get the whole liberty policy branch, pick GE as my free great person. With my GE, I rush hanging gardens, which gives me lots of food. Since I dont have to worry about food till the late game, i get all scientists specialist i can get and 1 each merchant, artisi, and engineer specialists. I get a lot of Great Scientists, which I think are the best.