classical_hero
In whom I trust
I have started this discussion thread so we can go into greater depth on this issue, because if we do not et this issue sorted out, then problems can occur like what we had in the past.
"Spirit of the game/Rules".
- Thread starter classical_hero
- Start date
I really can't believe how many electrons have had to be forced into service on this issue. I think a few different issues have been getting wrapped up into one big hairball of ire.
I really really really hate to say this, but I agree with Provolution on several points. TNT had every right to rename that city. There was no 'foul play'. Imagine this scenario: we haven't met anyone at all in the game yet (just some barbarians), and disband a city to force our palace to be closer to our core productive land. The other three teams which we haven't even met all cry foul over our percieved shenanigans. Too bad for the other three: This was an internal, domestic issue, and now the other teams who we haven't even met have forced us into the open, with the full cooperation of the mods. We'd be righteously furious.
This issue has been handled poorly, from all sides. The idea of a city-name registry seems a bit over-wrought to me, and if something happens in F11 before contact, well.... That's just part of the game.
As to the issue of 'the spirit of the game', Provo has it all wrong. He's trying to treat it as a legal term. This is a mulitplayer game. This is not a courtroom. He's upset because he (not so much his team, but Provo, personally) got nailed based on an interpretable phrase. The SotG, along with the Unwritten spirit of the Rules, are there to guide all of us in the manner in which we conduct ourselves. If someone needs that spelled out in more detail, they probably shouldn't be playing with the rest of us.
As for a poll, I disagree with Provo. He mentions several drawbacks to a poll:
1. Different team sizes. We are all within a couple players of eachother, so that's moot.
2. Teams have different issues. Of course they do, and people within the teams see the issues differently from their teammates. That's no reason to try to find out what the consensus is.
3. Teams have right to reach internal agreement. Of course they do. Chat within your team, find out how you all think things will work best, and urge your citizens to vote that way. Just because it's a secret poll does not mean that people will necessarily vote against their team's interest.
4. "Making this a secret poll, would only obfuscate the issue, be unfair, arbitrary and finally contribute to internal suspicion in teams" There would only be obfuscation if the poll were not structured properly, and even so, people are always free to post comments in the poll thread to further elaborate their position. Unfair?... I don't see how this follows - It's a POLL! Arbitrary?... again - only if improperly structured. Contribute to internal suspicion?... Maybe the real reason he doesn't want to see a poll.
Personally, I'm against a poll, but for a different reason. I don't see a need to elaborate on what SotG means. I also don't think that the renaming rules need to be anything beyond what they are already. We all wound up screwing TNT over their rename, and we never should have been asked to bring it up in the UN. I'm not placing blame, I'm just stating that this whole mess was handled badly, and we should all be more circumspect in the future.
I don't think that TNT violated that Spirit by renaming Dancing Banana. The fact that we know they did (from UN intervention) just goes to show how out-of-control this got. We had suspicions, which turned out to be wrong, and the mods should have squelched our Public discussion of this. MIA, KISS, DNUT (if they haven't met) should never have known with certainty that this rename occured.
Discussions of this sort sap the fun out of the game, and this will most likely be my only post on the matter. We should all just move on, and get back into the game. I also think that MIA should prepare a nice big apology gift to team TNT, to be presented when we finally meet... As much as Provo's ire was unproductive for the game, our outrage was no more constructive.
I'm not posting any of this in the UN.. I'd like to stay out of the snake pit. But if any of my teammates wants to post my comments, in whole or chopped up, just make sure you're not changing my meaning.
I really really really hate to say this, but I agree with Provolution on several points. TNT had every right to rename that city. There was no 'foul play'. Imagine this scenario: we haven't met anyone at all in the game yet (just some barbarians), and disband a city to force our palace to be closer to our core productive land. The other three teams which we haven't even met all cry foul over our percieved shenanigans. Too bad for the other three: This was an internal, domestic issue, and now the other teams who we haven't even met have forced us into the open, with the full cooperation of the mods. We'd be righteously furious.
This issue has been handled poorly, from all sides. The idea of a city-name registry seems a bit over-wrought to me, and if something happens in F11 before contact, well.... That's just part of the game.
As to the issue of 'the spirit of the game', Provo has it all wrong. He's trying to treat it as a legal term. This is a mulitplayer game. This is not a courtroom. He's upset because he (not so much his team, but Provo, personally) got nailed based on an interpretable phrase. The SotG, along with the Unwritten spirit of the Rules, are there to guide all of us in the manner in which we conduct ourselves. If someone needs that spelled out in more detail, they probably shouldn't be playing with the rest of us.
As for a poll, I disagree with Provo. He mentions several drawbacks to a poll:
1. Different team sizes. We are all within a couple players of eachother, so that's moot.
2. Teams have different issues. Of course they do, and people within the teams see the issues differently from their teammates. That's no reason to try to find out what the consensus is.
3. Teams have right to reach internal agreement. Of course they do. Chat within your team, find out how you all think things will work best, and urge your citizens to vote that way. Just because it's a secret poll does not mean that people will necessarily vote against their team's interest.
4. "Making this a secret poll, would only obfuscate the issue, be unfair, arbitrary and finally contribute to internal suspicion in teams" There would only be obfuscation if the poll were not structured properly, and even so, people are always free to post comments in the poll thread to further elaborate their position. Unfair?... I don't see how this follows - It's a POLL! Arbitrary?... again - only if improperly structured. Contribute to internal suspicion?... Maybe the real reason he doesn't want to see a poll.
Personally, I'm against a poll, but for a different reason. I don't see a need to elaborate on what SotG means. I also don't think that the renaming rules need to be anything beyond what they are already. We all wound up screwing TNT over their rename, and we never should have been asked to bring it up in the UN. I'm not placing blame, I'm just stating that this whole mess was handled badly, and we should all be more circumspect in the future.
I don't think that TNT violated that Spirit by renaming Dancing Banana. The fact that we know they did (from UN intervention) just goes to show how out-of-control this got. We had suspicions, which turned out to be wrong, and the mods should have squelched our Public discussion of this. MIA, KISS, DNUT (if they haven't met) should never have known with certainty that this rename occured.
Discussions of this sort sap the fun out of the game, and this will most likely be my only post on the matter. We should all just move on, and get back into the game. I also think that MIA should prepare a nice big apology gift to team TNT, to be presented when we finally meet... As much as Provo's ire was unproductive for the game, our outrage was no more constructive.
I'm not posting any of this in the UN.. I'd like to stay out of the snake pit. But if any of my teammates wants to post my comments, in whole or chopped up, just make sure you're not changing my meaning.
fe3333au
Deity
I personally would like a renaming structure ... however will go with the majority decision as it should be ...
Regarding how it was handled by the admins ... yep that did cause a bit of assumption which in turn led to defensive stances ...
Our official responce from ybbor was basically to give our point of view ...
However what I personally was reacting to was Provo's condescenting attitude ... which continued well after all the facts had surfaced ...
I am glad that the new rule has been posted and I for one will not miss him if he is banned ... everyone who I have spoken to are sick of his arrogance ...
Putting that behind us ... the reason i thought of a secret ballot was that we have never had a unanimous decision ... and I wanted individual player thoughts to be expressed instead of being lost within a team's vote ... so I thought this would be the best way to solve the issue once and for all and then stop any potential stalemate problems ... I can easily envisage 2 vs 2 and then that would solve nothing ...
Regarding how it was handled by the admins ... yep that did cause a bit of assumption which in turn led to defensive stances ...
Our official responce from ybbor was basically to give our point of view ...
However what I personally was reacting to was Provo's condescenting attitude ... which continued well after all the facts had surfaced ...
I am glad that the new rule has been posted and I for one will not miss him if he is banned ... everyone who I have spoken to are sick of his arrogance ...
Putting that behind us ... the reason i thought of a secret ballot was that we have never had a unanimous decision ... and I wanted individual player thoughts to be expressed instead of being lost within a team's vote ... so I thought this would be the best way to solve the issue once and for all and then stop any potential stalemate problems ... I can easily envisage 2 vs 2 and then that would solve nothing ...
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