splitting the constitution - how can that work?

[Cyc]

Donsig, the amendment I was referring to wasn't about making a valid poll binding. It was about any poll created by a Leader being binding. I just threw the validation part in parethesis because it made sense to me for that paragraph.

Your concrete example doesn't exist without a poll, did you create one? Now let's move poll discussions to the Polling Commision.

 

[donsig]

I have been trying to carry on this discussion in two difficult threads and I'm not sure if the example I'm using belongs in the polling standards thread or this one. In the example I gave there is only four hours to go before the decision is needed. My understanding is that this would not be enough time to complete a valid poll. This thread is about splitting the constitution into constitution/laws/regulations/standards. The need for quick decisions must be taken into account both in our polling standards and in how we formulate the *rules* for playing the demo game.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by my concrete example doesn't exist without a poll, did you create one?". I have not made a poll about this. There has been no discussion on the issue, hence a valid poll cannot be started yet, correct? Even if a valid poll could be started would we have the results before tonight's turn chat? No. There are cases where polling will not help and in those cases our constitution/laws/regulations must step in to guide us in the way decisions should be made.

 

[Cyc]

Basically on the Constitution/laws/regs, I agree with you again. As far as Eyrei's letter goes, let me quote a bit of it first:

Finally, the republic is in dire need of workers to build railroads. I request that each province provide two worker units within the next ten turns if at all possible to aid in this task. Chondote will be queued to build four workers in succession to begin construction of national railway stretching from Thebes to PDX, and then south to Fox's Nest.

Key word in the paragraph is request. He did not post an order or demand compliance. He wrote a letter to the Gov'nas asking if they would help with the railway system. In his last post to the letter, he stated that the new workers would stay in the Province they were created in. I don't see the need for a poll in this situation. There was a quick turn around time for a decision by the governors requested in the letter (within 10 turns) which means in one turn chat. This wasn't really the proper way for the Domestic Leader to handle his plan, but as I stated before, this was only a request. (Which, as a Governor, I originally complied with.)

And you are right about there not being enough time to approach this situation with a valid poll. And you are right that the laws/regs should cover these kinds of situations. And you are right about these conversations belonging in both threads.

So I guess I'll keep on replying.

 

[eyrei]

I am not sure it is possible to handle workers in any way than the way I did in my letter. Had there been objections to the plan I proposed, a poll would have needed to be posted. We have enough issues to poll on without adding mundane tasks such as worker allocation to the polls forum. I suggest that if there is no more than one objection to a proposal from the domestic leader or one of the governors regarding worker tasks, that we simply let it go without a poll. Had one of the governors objected or refused to supply the workers, I had no intention of forcing the issue.

 

[Cyc]

Bingo, next topic.

 

[donsig]

Guys, I was not referring to eyrei's call for governor's to build workers but to his instructions in the turn chat thread for what the workers should do. There is nothing in the constitution that authorizes the domestic leader to make decisions regarding workers. In the past the domestic leader has not posted instructions for workers. Since I do not see workers as being under the jurisdiction of the domestic leader I am faced with a dilemma and our demo game *rules* do not help me to find a way out.

Here is the post I'm reffering to.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by donsig
Guys, I was not referring to eyrei's call for governor's to build workers but to his instructions in the turn chat thread for what the workers should do. There is nothing in the constitution that authorizes the domestic leader to make decisions regarding workers. In the past the domestic leader has not posted instructions for workers. Since I do not see workers as being under the jurisdiction of the domestic leader I am faced with a dilemma and our demo game *rules* do not help me to find a way out.

Here is the post I'm reffering to.

Those are all instructions for cities that I govern, except for PDX, which was decided by a poll. I don't see any alternative to letting the governor's control workers that would make sense.

 

[Cyc]

Ah, I see your point, Donsig. And it works. What do you propose?

Sorry I was out in left field when you wanted me on first, but at least I was in the ballpark...

 

[Cyc]

Eyrei, can you post a link to the polls you talk about?

 

[eyrei]

Here it is. This poll is also an example of why I don't like the polls sub-forum. Almost noone voted, probably because they didn't know it was there.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by eyrei
Those are all instructions for cities that I govern, except for PDX, which was decided by a poll. I don't see any alternative to letting the governor's control workers that would make sense.

I think it only makes sense to let the designated player (DP) control the workers just as he or she controls the military forces during war. It is the DP who sees what is going on each turn.
Now I'm not suggesting the DP be able to over-turn poll results and I am all in favor of polls to direct our government. Makes our job easier.

I think eyrei is arguing that if cities in his province make the worker then he should be allowed to control that worker. I would agree that makes sense as long as the worker stays in the province that produced it. It seems to me that once the workers start crossing provincial borders they are now working on national projects. Whether such national projects are under the jurisdiction of the designated player or domestic leader would have to be determined. In any case, as it stands, decisions regarding workers are not given to the president, the domestic leader nor to the governors by the constitution.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by eyrei
Here it is. This poll is also an example of why I don't like the polls sub-forum. Almost noone voted, probably because they didn't know it was there.

Unfortunately we don't have polling standards in place yet. So, as we consider how splitting the constitution can work we should certainly follow the case of these workers with an eye towards the proper handling of a situation like this. What mechanisms will we put in place for deciding if the issue should be resolved by a regulation, a law or a constitutional amendment? What do we do in the absence of rules for a given situation?

 

[Cyc]

All good points, Donsig.

Eyrei, thank you for the link. I would say the low turnout for that poll was caused by the fact that you started two polls at the same time with almost the same heading, and the poll in question was one of them. The "Poll Sub-Forum" heading on the poll sub-forum sub-forum should pretty much alert our citizens that there is now a new sub-forum for our polls and if people quit posting polls in the citizen's sub-forum, it would help a lot.

 

[disorganizer]

how long was the poll up?
was is sticky?
was there an abstain option? No (which may have prevented some from voting).

The result could also mean that 30-13=17 citizens did not care about the outgoing of the poll. This is a perfect example why abstain is needed in the polls.
If it was up for less than 2-3 days this could also be the reason, or unstickyness when much was going on.

 

[Immortal]

dis is correct for this poll, it was:

Not made sticky
Moved around between (3?) different forums before landing a home.
Lack of an abstain button, I wanted to abstain on this poll, there was no option, so I didn't vote on this poll.

I think it only makes sense to let the designated player (DP) control the workers just as he or she controls the military forces during war. It is the DP who sees what is going on each turn.

/me waves goodbye to democracy as it flies out the window

The military advisor controls the military during war, at least it did during our last war, for all I know our "debates" have put that into the presidents territory

 

[Shaitan]

Those shots will either be a salute or a firing squad. Can't wait to see which.

Here is the first draft of the Proposal for Constitution C. Constitution A was the original and B was the revision we implemented at the start of Term 2. This file is version 1.0 and is in MS Word format. If anybody needs this in text only, let me know. If there's no demand for text only I don't want to take the time to go through and convert it.

This document includes everything in our current Constitution plus the several rule revisions that passed in popular polls at the end of Term 2 but did not get put to the Council for amendment votes. It also includes poll procedures being talked about right now.

There is one other massively glaring change. The At-Large Council positions are gone and have been replaced by a judiciary of 2 positions. The Judge Advocate is the prosecutor and the Public Defendant is the defense. They still vote the citizen proxy in Council Votes but are otherwise separated from the Constitution. This change was badly needed as we are instituting rules and regulations, laws, crimes and punishments. I had to add a judiciary branch to make this work. Essentially, the At-Large Council lost the ability to change the Constitution and gained the ability to enforce it.

Please remember as you read this proposed Constitution that every aspect of this document is open for debate. Nothing is set in stone. It is a vehicle and starting point for discussion that will hopefully end with a sexy, workable set of rules.

There are bunchles of threads on the Constitution right now. I put this proposal in this thread as it seemed like the most appropriate one and also is getting activity while the others are floundering.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Immortal
/me waves goodbye to democracy as it flies out the window

The military advisor controls the military during war, at least it did during our last war, for all I know our "debates" have put that into the presidents territory

The miltary department directed the Domino War only as far as outlining general startegies (i.e., take New York then Washington then Philadelphia - or what ever it was). Military also set objectives, such as pillage the American's iron. They did not and could not have given detailed instructions for the movement of each unit for ten turns - that had to be left up to the designated player (DP). The military controls our military forces and the DP would have to follow any spefics moves that the General could supply. That's a constitutional power of the military leader.

Workers are not mentioned in the constitution. That's is why I brought the point up in this thread. We must decide first, how workers will be controlled (who will have the constitutional authority to organize and order the workers) and second, we must decide how to handle unforeseen things like this (who has any powers not mentioned in the constitution).

In any event Immortal I am trying to protect our democracy not usurp it.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Immortal
dis is correct for this poll, it was:

Not made sticky
Moved around between (3?) different forums before landing a home.
Lack of an abstain button, I wanted to abstain on this poll, there was no option, so I didn't vote on this poll.

I have to disagree with some of this, as the poll I opened about why we play the demo game got a greater response and it was neither sticky nor in the polls forum. I think that the citizens forum is the proper place for citizen polls. Maybe the lack of an abstain button had an effect, but I hope not too great of one. If you don't mind my asking, why would you have abstained? It seemed an issue that should be important to every citizen.

 

[Shaitan]

I'd propose that governors control the general use of the workers produced in their provinces. The Domestic Leader would control the general use of federal employees (built in the Capital province, foreign workers, workers borrowed from provinces). Instruction could be as detailed or vague as the official wants. The Domestic Leader would also get to use idle workers.

 

[donsig]

I haven't looked at the proposed constitution yet so I'm not sure if workers are mentioned or not. I forsee problems in having governors control workers (the workers would be bound to each province and it would be very difficult for the designated player (DP) to track this as our provincial borders do not show up in the game). I oppose putting workers under the jurisdiction of the domestic leader as that position is already the most powerful as it is. Traditionally workers have been under the authority of the DP and it should remain that way. Just so everyone can seperate Presidential powers from donsig's powers I would like to state here that I will not be running for re-election as President. It is my hope to retire from politics after this term and pursue book contracts.