splitting the constitution - how can that work?

[Shaitan]

Constitution C, version 1.3

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by Shaitan
We've got a couple of items that sort of fell by the wayside as we got into discussion on the quorums and poll styles. Please share your ideas on these:

1. Who controls workers?
2. Who has default command of items not detailed in the rules?
3. Who decides what to do with leaders?
4. Other sticky threads (Cultural Art Museum, Newspaper, Awards). We need a category name for these.
5. Citizens initiating votes on procedures, laws.

My thoughts are:

1. The President/DP
2. The President
3. The people, via polls. The polls would be the responsibility of the Pres.
4. No idea. I'm drawing a blank here.
5. I say no, but without great conviction. I like the idea but I think it's a huge can of worms that is better left unopened.

Any more feedback on these issues? Cyc is the only one who commented on them. In the last revision I categorized the independent threads (#4 above) as "Heritage" threads. For the others, I'm ready to implement my suggestions on 1-3. #5 doesn't require an action unless we want to implement it so it will remain as is unless we get some discussion on implementation.

 

[donsig]

I agree on the first 3. #4 sounds like forum reorganization stuff. Haven't thought much about that. Haven't thought much about #5 either.

Are all these for the articles of the coonstitution or are some for laws and standards? I still like the idea of a stand alone constitution that we can ratify soon.

I will try to spend time with the constitution today.

 

[Shaitan]

Those are all for laws and standards. They'd been sitting on the back burner for a while so I wanted to clear them out.

 

[disorganizer]

* i would propose if an issue is specified in the rules as "decidable in chat", this can be done. if not, the issue has to be brought to forum. so i would propose the other way around than u. a kind of "if its not in the rules, make a poll for it".
* leaders=poll
* workers: national=domestic leader (what would be his job without this?), provincial=governor. governors can "lent" workers to the nation for a period of time or for a specific project.

 

[Cyc]

I just d/l ver. 1.3. I have been working on this in the background and have not been pleased with my thoughts. I'll try to get it written down and posted.

 

[Shaitan]

Disorganizer, we're trying to decide who is responsible for those items. The wording in my post is poor. It isn't giving autocratic control over those items, just determining who's job it is to organize the decision.

The problem brought up with having various officials in charge of different workers was implementation. There's no way to keep track of what worker belongs to who.

 

[Shaitan]

Workers:

I think that the various leaders should specify their desired improvements and then the DP should manage the workers on the projects. The DP is the only one who is going to know the most efficient way to get projects completed. The Domestic Leader would be responsible for determining national projects (and the Capital Province) and the provincial governors would be responsible for their individual provinces. National projects would include things like road and rail networks. Provincial projects would be city terrain improvements.

 

[disorganizer]

@Shaitan:
No specific worker-recognition would be needed. If the DL has lent 2 workers from provinces, he has to give them back when the projects are finished.
Example:
The DL asks the governors of Ameri and Normandy to lent one worker each for a project near fox nest (say, cutting 3 jungle tiles).
After this work was finished, he has to give those two back.
No tracking of which worker belongs to which province will be needed, the DL just has to track how many workers he lent from which province (and maybe nationality of the worker!).
Maybe a increas in province budget for the time the worker is lent to the Nation is a good price for lenting workers (should be a fixed price for all provinces).

 

[Shaitan]

Worker nationality wouldn't need to be tracked. Any provincial workers will be native. All foreign workers would be federal.

Our budget doesn't work that way. Budget is allocated for specific purposes - there's no increase or decrease, just yes or no.

The big problem with any provincial worker system is efficiency. We sacrifice a huge amount of overall efficiency if each province "owns" its own workers. It also adds another level of minutiae to running the game. Would governors need a list of tasks for each worker? What if they don't supply enough tasks? Does the DP use a worker or let it sit idle?

 

[disorganizer]

If a worker is left idle, the DL can use it immediately, as the governor obviously does not want it any more (except the situation where the governor left an order to let the worker sit idle in a city).
At the moment instructions for a worker are missing, the DL takes ownership of the worker. The worker is promoted from a provincial to a federal employee.
With this system, there will always be enough workers to clean pollution later on, for example, in each province, as this will be a provincial task to do ;-)
The governors should supply detailed worker info also right now, as also tile-usage information.
We should investigate why they dont follow their job-description ;-)

 

[Shaitan]

It's just way too complex a system. I don't see enough benefit to warrant the additional managament. This would be a precedent for the Military Leader directing each troop movement and activity. I guess I just don't think we want or need such granular control.

 

[disorganizer]

the military is a different think, as there will be much more military units than workers and with much more possibilities. workers are, when started to work, static.

 

[Shaitan]

As Donsig said, our first goal should be to present and get approval for the Constitution. The Codes of Laws and Standards flow from the Constitution itself. The three questions that we need to be able to answer "YES" to are:

1. Will this constitution define and defend the basic concepts of the game?
2. Will this constitution allow the game to progress at an acceptable rate? i.e. is it restrictive enough to allow efficient game play?
3. Will this constitution allow the players of the game to enjoy themselves? i.e. is it permissive enough to allow participation?

I think it's there now, but I realize I'm probably too close to the subject to judge that impartially. Following is the current version of the Constitution only. Please comment on whether it is ready for submission. If not, please comment on what needs work so we can get on it.

The Constitution of Phoenatica
We, the people of Phoenatica, in order to create an atmosphere of friendship and cooperation, establish this Constitution of our beloved country. We uphold the beliefs that each citizen must have a voice in the government and ruling of our country, that government itself is a construct of and servant to the people, that rules, regulations, and laws should be established to facilitate the active participation of the people and to make possible the dreams and desires of the Phoenatics.

• All players of the democracy game are citizens of Phoenatica. Citizens have the right to assemble, the right to free movement, the right to free speech, the right to a fair trial, the right to representation, the right to demand satisfaction and the right to vote.
• All Civfanatics Forum users who register in the Citizen Registry are citizens of Phoenatica.
• Governing rules shall consist of the Articles of the Constitution, the Code of Laws and the standards of the Code of Standards. No laws shall be passed that conflict with an article and no standards shall be used that conflict with a law or an article.
• The government will consist of the Executive Branch, Legislative Branch, Judicial Branch and Provincial governments.
• The Executive Branch is headed by the President, who shall be the designated player of the game.
• The Legislative Branch will be formed of a council of leaders, each of whom heads a department that controls one major facet of the country. These departments are Domestic, Foreign, Military, Science, Culture and Trade.
• The Judicial Branch will be formed of two leaders, one who is tasked with upholding the laws (Advocate General) and one who is tasked with defending the citizenry (Public Defendant).
• Each province will be governed by a Provincial Governor who is responsible for the care, management and use of the cities and lands of the province.
• All offices will be filled via election each calendar month with terms to begin on the 1st of the month.
• No person shall hold multiple positions of leadership (President, Department Leader, Judiciary, Provincial Governor) simultaneously.
• The monthly census of active citizenry will be taken. Half of this census will constitute a quorum.
• A simple majority of citizen approval shall be required to adopt or change a standard. A simple majority of citizen approval plus a simple majority of legislative approval shall be required to adopt or change a law. A 2/3 majority of citizen approval and a 2/3 majority of legislative approval shall be required to adopt or change an article.
• The citizenry, by default, will hold a 25% proxy in the legislature. The citizen proxy plus the Legislative branch, divided by two, will constitute a quorum for validation of polling.
• Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people.
• Game actions will be played out during a public turn chat.
• The constitution, laws and standards of Phoenatica can never be contrary to the rules and regulations of the Civfanatics forums. Moderators may veto any such constitutional amendments, laws or standards.

 

[Shaitan]

Article L is the one that might need tweaking. It did have some discussion but no concensus was reached.

 

[Shaitan]

M could be clearer as well. I'll change it to:

The citizenry, by default, will hold a 25% proxy in the legislature. The citizen proxy plus the Legislative branch constitute the Council. The Council body divided by two will constitute a quorum for validation of polling.

(Comments please, if necessary.)

 

[disorganizer]

A+B can be thrown together. A double definition of citizen.
A should read "All Citizens of Phoenatica...". Who cares about the players.

 

[Shaitan]

Good point Dis. I'll combine those.

 

[disorganizer]

It just has to say that you only become a citizen if you register.

 

[disorganizer]

Another point:
ist this too much details for the "book of principles"?
in my belief, this book should contain more general guidelines. we do not want to change it any more (if possible), so its a kind of "citizen rights" or "bill of rights" or something like that.
The detailing will be done in the law-book, like for example the percentages of the votes.
For example:
I: should only read ".. will be filled by elections"
the book of regulations should then define when they are filled and how elections run.