*Spoiler4* Gotm17-Carthage - End Game Submitted

Originally posted by LKendter
I have no idea why you want to see an example of my worst played game in a long time? :(
Because a bad game still scores more than no game at all. Yeah I know, I focus a bit on score. But it is one of the easiest ways for me to compare permformances.
 
I have intervened and split oof the discussion elements that seem primarily focused on aspects of "The Jason Scoring System" and moved those discussions over to the side discussion thread for that specific topic.

I urge all players to respect the primary intent and focus of this thread and to stay on topic with the strategy and game events for Gotm17-Carthage.

If you would like to discuss specifics of the scoring system that extend beyond the the narrow focus of Gotm17-Carthage then those discussions should be conducting in the thread for the side discussion of the scoring system.

Try to discuss significant details of the scoring system may tend to "threadjack" this original discussion and end up with a less effective result for both topics.
 
Alas, there was just too much going on this month to complete this GOTM.

It is 1946 and there is no way I can finish today. And yet it was a great learning game.

Where I am at:
1946, Firaxis score about 2000. In the lead for score over Amer by 459, but they are gaining each turn. Projected outcome of the game-- loss: either to America as UN victory or Persia as Spaceship victory. Changes of a miracle:

Domination: nill. Military is weak vs Amer. Both Amer and Persia are at least 5 techs ahead of me in the modern era.

Diplomatic: doubtful. 2nd in size so would have a vote but not everyone is happy with me.

Culture: no way. Culture is only 65K and Amer will make is too difficult to get 2x by end of the game.

Space: hah, hah. Behind in techs, not a chance. Amer has already completed SETI.

Conquest: nill. See Domination comments.

Histograph: slight, only if Amer doesn't close gap too fast. I was about 500 ahead and now only about 450.

What went well
1. Removing Egypt
2. Getting Smiths
3. Obtaining coal by squeezing between Rome and Greece.
4. Building out initial land mass
5. Building enough ships for exploration
6. Stayed out of war with Rome and America
7. Built Univ Suff.


What did not go so well
1. Lost 3 cities to English and had to rebuild
2. Missed Magellan by 2 turns
3. Took 2 campaigns to get Greece and way too long.
4. Amer was able to conquer Russia
5. Biggie-- except for few cities most cities never did develop production capability. I put FP on same land mass as Palace and only had one leader so no time to replace.
6. Behind in techs in modern era. Lost race for Hoover which catapulted Amer to tech and production lead.
7. Lost Argos 2 times to Greece.


Don't anticipate I will have time for GOTM again until May, but do plan to complete the QSC for each GOTM.

suggestion
If you play GOTM a lot and still have a 400-600Mhz machine, upgrade. It may cost a bit but it sure makes game play more enjoyable.

My experience--
400 Mhz, PII with 512 RAM
Latency between turns: more than 5 minutes

2.3 GHz, P4 with 1024 RAM
Latency between turns: 17 seconds.

--PF
 
Oh my God... the humiliation... I lost a Regent game for the first time... how terrible, GOTM 16 at emperor level was a walk-over for me! :)

I guess I'm not very good at archipellago maps, my progression was way to slow.... Although I was the biggest and most advanced civ in the world, I managed to loose by space race. I didnt care for space flight and went for the other techs first, a mistake I will never ever make again. When Persia started building space ship components I thought it was a good idea to start mine.... so I bought Space Flight and suddenly realised each civ has to build their own Apollo Project apparently, while I always thought only 1 civ had to build it... around that time Persia had already 7 components finished and in a desperate attempt to stop them I launched 4 ICBM's on their biggest cities, having the whole world declare war on me instantly.... Lost some cities on some far outposts by the Americans, a few turns after I finally had peace with everyone again the Persians launched their space ship :(.

Oh well... I don't really like archipellago, i hope GOTM 18 will be more my style again :).

-Dimy
 
Well, I've submitted my game, a Diplomatic Victory in 1770 AD. I decided to get the diplo victory after deciding I didn't have time to complete my 20K culture victory. Carthage has almost 15K culture, and is gaining about 122 cpt, so I estimate around 40 - 45 turns left. But my game is going very slowly, and even if I automate everything and just build wealth, I think it'd take about 3 hours (which I don't have.) With enough time I'd gotten the 20K culture somewhere in the 1850's.

Getting a diplomatic victory can be interesting. I'd taken Egypt and Greece out of the game; America had taken Germany out. Since Russia was down to 1 city, and they didn't like me, and they ATTACKED me (Archer against Mech Infantry :lol: ) it was pretty easy to finish them off, leaving 9 civs. MPPs and gold got the Aztecs and China Gracious with me. Persia also was ameniable in this way. (4 likely votes; 1 more to clinch.) England was a non-starter - couldn't get Elizabeth better than annoyed. Same for the Zulu. However, Rome and the Iroqouis were Polite, so I gifted them. America and I were at war.

Who was the other candidate going to be? I was the only one in the Modern Age, so I knew I'd finish the UN. By my eye it was a toss-up between the Zulu and Rome. (Is it considered unethical, or cheating, to use MapStat to see who has more land area for UN selection?) Well, the Zulu decided to attack the Iroqouis a couple of turns before the first UN vote, so I quickly signed an alliance with the Iroqouis and hoped the Zulu would be the 2nd candidate. Nope, it was Rome, but I still got 5 votes (Carthage, Persia, Aztecs, China and Iroqouis), to 2 (Rome, England) with 2 abstentions (Zulu and America). Turns out that the Zulu and America were at war with both of us; does the AI always abstain in this type of case?

I only sent out a few suicide galleys (maybe 5 in all) and 1 actually made it to Greece. I was already ahead in technology (I had monotheism) so I decided to just beeline to Navigation, and save my Galleys for safe Ocean transiting. This was in line with my slower growth pattern, and my desire to finish pacifying the Egyptian lands; by the time I had resources to try the suicide galley, it made more sense to wait.

I also didn't see much sense it bringing the AI up to technology parity with me. Only Persia of the Scientific civs was relatively unhampered by its neighbors. Babylon was taken out eventually by the Zulu; Russia was reduced by America and Germany, and then Germany was taken out by America. Greece had about a third of it's territory taken by Rome before I found them; I eventually took care of them. Persia and England had almost evenly split their island group, but this left Persia too small to really challenge or help Carthage in scientific research. I used Navigation to advance myself considerably while limiting the AI communications until the last possible minute. I did get about 5 ancient Era techs from Egypt, I traded for 5 Middle Age and 3 Industrial Age techs, and researched the rest. At the position I was, I might have sped the research path up by making more competition, or I might have slowed things down by trying to wait for them to research something I didn't have. I just plowed through, and left a few techs to trade for later. (Specifically, the lower techs in the Middle Age, and the Nationalism tree in the Industrial Age).

It was fun, but took longer than I'd have liked. PTW said my game was 47 hours long, which is a lot for me. (GOTM16 was about 35 hours by my estimate.) I hope next month doesn't have the pauses that this month had.
 
Originally posted by civ_steve
Nope, it was Rome, but I still got 5 votes (Carthage, Persia, Aztecs, China and Iroqouis), to 2 (Rome, England) with 2 abstentions (Zulu and America). Turns out that the Zulu and America were at war with both of us; does the AI always abstain in this type of case?
Nicely done, good way to finish it off quickly. Too bad you didn't have time for your original goal.

I did a bit of testing recently and I've concluded that the AI will not vote for anyone they don't have at least "polite" relations with. If their relations with all the UN candidates are cautious or worse (annoyed/furious) then they'll abstain rather than vote. I do not know whether they'll ever vote for anyone they're at war with. It is hard to test directly but seens unlikely to ever matter - it is pretty much a sure thing they'll be annoyed or furious with anyone they're at war with.
 
Previous Chapters in the History of Carthage:

The Ancient Age
The Age of Exploration
The Five Musketeers (Expedition to Mt. Faka)
The Early Industrial Age

I know I am posting in this thread very late, as GOTM should be starting in a few hours, but I submitted Friday, and we had company over the weekend and I wasn't able to do much.

When I left off in the last thread, I had just conquered Greece, and was considering 3 options: Standard Space Race, a Diplomatic Win (a first for me), or an aggressive game, trying Amphibious invasions to take out 2-3 rivals (probably Rome, Persia and England) and expand my score, then go for the space launch. While I thought a late industrial/early modern series of conquests would be fun, and I actually started to build up/upgrade forces for the attempt, I quickly realized I would not be able to take on Rome or England/Persia before they got nationalism, meaning I would probably want to wait for tanks, and by then I would be close enough to finishing that it didn't seem that the score increase for their territory/pop would be that significant for the last 20-40 turns.

Also, RL events (primarily keeping up with the initial coverage of the war in Iraq) meant that Civ took a back seat for a week or so, so I decided to go for the quickest victory, which should have been diplomatic. However, before completing fission, Carthage grew and completed Battlefield Medicine (I was using it as a pre-build, hoping to get half the shields in before fission), so I decided to go for the space race after all. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot to say about it, it was a VERY uneventful period. I basically played from 1400AD to my launch in 1720 with nothing happening but renewing trade deals, and selling industrial techs every 10 turns or so to keep the AI bankrupt. I continued to build some military forces, to be prepared to punish any AI that might declare war on me for spite, but they never did. They were all peaceful, and IIRC none of them had Atomic Theory by the time I launched, so there was never much threat of them catching up.

Had I planned better, I should have rolled from Greece straight into Rome, and taken them out before they could have had Nationalism (or even contact with the other civs, I could have continued my Privateer blockade at least 10-20 more turns, I think). Then maybe I could focus on England/Persia, just for the score, but it is hard for me to go to war without some pressing national interest, and after I had coal secured, I was pretty content.

EDIT:
I did go back and look at my save games, I completed the UN in 1595AD, and when I loaded it, everyone but Shaka voted for me (he voted for himself). My in-game score was about 200 points higher, but per the Jason score it would have been only about 70 points higher. I could have done better had I planned my pre-build better, I got Fission in 1560, if I had a city start earlier on Palace as a prebuild, so I could complete immediately, it might have helped some, but oh well, wouldn't have made that much difference either way.
 
Yet another submission just ahead of the deadline.

I began the invasion of Egypt in 350 BC, jumped my palace to Thebes in 190 BC, and eliminated Egypt in 50 BC.

I got Navigation in 70 AD and built 35 caravels to explore and set up my transport chain supply lines. After getting Military Tradition in 440 AD I set science to 0%, making +500 gpt. The AIs never got close to either tech by the end of the game. With such a huge tech lead my biggest problem was not building an army, but transporting it across the globe.

I connected the home islands to the three closest continents with transport chains. I eliminated Persia+England first, then Rome+Greece, then America.

In the southern hemisphere, the remnants of my Egyptian attack force converged on the Aztecs and captured their 2 islands. I began cash rushing cavalry, and soon had enough to wipe out the Aztecs and Chinese. I shipped the cavalry over to the next island and the Iroquois, Babylonians, and Zulu died next. The army built of gold sailed to the German coast, where they converged with the army built of shields to eliminate Germany.

Conquest date: 970 AD
Score: 4376
 
Absolutely outstanding DaveMcW.
I got a domination victory in 1360 and in hindsight I believed one could have got that by 1000AD. You prove me wrong and I bow to your master class.
How do you feel being that good?
On a related matter. Why do you submit in the last day? Do you start late or do you plan every move you make?

I was on the same level with you on your conquest of Egypt. but I got Navigation 20 turns later than you while being on full reasearch almost all the time. I think I got only 40% of the world by 970AD.
 
Now why did I wait to post after Dave :lol: Gee you must lay at wake most nights wondering what the rest of us are talking about when mentioning things like Spaceships, Modern Armour, and the like.

Well done on another great game.

Now as for my game I also went for a conquest and got there in 1924 with 2900 odd points
My biggest mistake was when making contact with the other civs, I sold contact with each other until everyone knew everyone else. Stupid idea when pitching at a conquest goal after realising I had left a 100k cultural victory too late. Selling contact would aid a diplo/space victory. All my AI opponents on the other island survived until I removed them so they traded like madmen to keep the tech race close. Too focussed on invasion to realise I could have used this to my advantage.

I was a lot happier with my QSC this time so hopefully it will mean a move from the middle of the rankings. Added another piece of the puzzle in micro managing city shield vs food production.
 
Originally posted by Yndy
On a related matter. Why do you submit in the last day? Do you start late or do you plan every move you make?

Playing PTW online eats up all my civ time. :( Killing regent-level AIs isn't nearly as fun as beating on real humans! ;)
 
Originally posted by DaveMcW

I began the invasion of Egypt in 350 BC, jumped my palace to Thebes in 190 BC, and eliminated Egypt in 50 BC.

I got Navigation in 70 AD and built 35 caravels to explore and set up my transport chain supply lines.

I'm shocked and awed of your achievement here Dave. I laughed when I saw the dates set for conquest on the Jason calculator - but your game proved that it actually can be done.

I will spend some time now studying the theoretics of palace jumping. Clearly it was quite instrumental in your rapid research&production pace. Who needs leaders with this stratagem?

Congrats on a very good game, I look forward to reading your QSC timeline.
 
Originally posted by SirPleb

Nicely done, good way to finish it off quickly. Too bad you didn't have time for your original goal.

I did a bit of testing recently and I've concluded that the AI will not vote for anyone they don't have at least "polite" relations with. If their relations with all the UN candidates are cautious or worse (annoyed/furious) then they'll abstain rather than vote. I do not know whether they'll ever vote for anyone they're at war with. It is hard to test directly but seens unlikely to ever matter - it is pretty much a sure thing they'll be annoyed or furious with anyone they're at war with.

Thanks, SirPleb! Your game posts have given me a lot of great, new ideas on pursuing a 20K culture victory; I may have to try this again soon. Most months I find myself scrambling to achieve a victory, which doesn't leave much opportunity to make a plan and stick to it. This month was close. Also, I found the long delays distracting. I'd make a plan for the next turn, then focus on something else while waiting for the game to return. When it did, I'd often forget to do something I'd planned to do. End result was I became somewhat lazy in my play this month, which is not much of an issue at Regent level.

The games one can play to get the vote for diplomacy are interesting. I'd eliminated 3 of the 4 extinct civs, and had been at war with America for probably 50 turns, the last 20 actually seeing action. Rome hadn't attacked anyone but Greece, early on, and seemed to be on pretty good terms with everybody (BTW, you know how the other civs feel about you; is there any way to determine how the other civs feel about each other?). Still I won the vote handily. Pay-offs and alliances do the trick, and having on-going wars also helped.
 
Originally posted by DaveMcW
Conquest date: 970 AD
Score: 4376

Nicely done!:goodjob:
 
.........Until I read DaveMcW's truly AWESOME 970AD Conquest! :goodjob: :goodjob: (Just joking DMW.....a mild case of Jaw-Drop!)

I thought finishing in 1285AD was pretty good, but obviously when it comes to non-milked games, DMW is in a superior class.

Must really pay attention to what DMW is saying and doing.

As the old saying goes: "You learn more from losing than by winning"!

AND, the "Aeson Scoring System" [:goodjob: :goodjob:] will test us Dairy Farmers of olde to see if we can re-engineer our profession! ;)

EMan Stats:
Conquest Date: 1285AD
Firaxis score: 4103
Aeson Score: 8285
 
Navigation in 70AD is just mind boggling. That's 131 turns into the game. 25 techs assuming you got republic and literature. So just barely over 5 turns per tech in the ancient/middle ages with only 1 trading partner that you eliminated. Just incredible. I read your article on palace jumping and didn't think it was that useful. I think I better change my mind on that one. :)
 
I don't have much to report this game as I destroyed my notes thinking I would NOT make the deadline. My game was sent in late on March 31.

Domination finally achieved close to 1,900 with one of my lowest scores in a long time. With how late I ended the Jason score is going to kill me. I will be lucky to make the top half of the scores this month.

At the end the only players left were:
1) England - just 2 cities left and wouldn't last more then 5 turns.
2) America - again 2 cities left and wouldn't last more then 5 turns.
3) Zulu - Untouched, and a monster Civ with Mech infantry! If I had to take them out, I don't know if I could have won.

Lessons learned:
If I ever see another massive island map I will NOT try for domination. I made a strategic mistake and tried for the wrong win type with this game.
 
I was thinking with a regent map and isolated island, I could kick back, crank tech and actually try for my first spaceship. Then my Ego got in the way.

When I found Germany, America, Ex-Russia Germany was the monster, America down to 3 cities and Russia extinct. Chicago, now owned by Germany, had not reexpanded its borders and left enough space to found a town on the NE island that would eventually have Coal in its mountain.

That little colonytown was the target of 3 sneak attacks by three different AI: Germany, Zulu and Greece.

Germany was first and started the first Cartho-German war. I took Chicago from them which later ensured that I'd have Coal and proceeded to take the Eastern atoll cities, mostly so I could get ships inside the donut and settle the lake-locked islands there. I eventually eliminated Germany. The Zulu raiders were killed and I just waited for them to settle for peace. The greeks on the otherhand had the middle islands between them and Rome with all those luxuries I didn't have. I got tanks in the middle of this war and took all but 1 greek city. Persia eliminated them a few turns before the UN. Since it was 2AM on March 31th without an opportunity to play during the day, I decided to let the vote take place and won all but 2 votes. Mediocre 2552 in 1762AD.

Total gametime was 77hours. I didn't leave my computer on and I wasn't milking. I'm just that slow. Maybe someday I'll be able to launch but right now, I can't play fast enough to do it.
 
Originally posted by EMan


EMan Stats:
Conquest Date: 1285AD
Firaxis score: 4103
Aeson Score: 8285

You must be using the old calculator.

You scored much better (Jason score). Your score should be 9003 for the Jason score.
I beat you by 1 turn, but you scored 282 more points than me, and with the Jason score, that still equates to about 275 points.

Here's the updated calculator:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/calculator.shtml

I was hoping for Bronze (figuring at least DaveMcW and SirPleb beat me), but looks like I missed out this time.
 
@Bamspeedy

Thanks for posting the link to the calculator!
My Jason score is 5025, definitely not in contention for any medal (not that anyone was expecting it to be.)
 
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