Spritual? Whats the fuss all about?

[bonafide11]

Spiritual is my favorite too. It always has been too. At least once I got bored of financial, which isn't either challenging or fun. Justinian is my favorite...

 

[UncleJJ]

Me second. Often with a large empire, Nationhoods low civic cost saves you more than bureaucracy will earn you considering its high civic cost. Plus it gives you happiness. I'm often surprised at how good it is as just an economic civic - even without considering the power of drafting.

Add me as the third supporter of this proposition. Nationhood >> Bureaucracy in the middle-late game. I am not surprised at all that Nationhood is the end game preferred civic for a SE and many HE. One other reason, that you missed from your list, why it is so good economically is the +25% EP bonus. If you've got plenty of the EP buildings in your cities and run a few spy specialists that can add up to several hundred extra EPs each turn. The +2 happiness bonus translates into larger cities and allow a SE to hold off converting to Emancipation a lot longer so Slavery and / or Caste System can be run which are much more productive for the SE. And then there is drafting, which can make Nationhood the most powerful civic in the game when properly used, effectively injecting hundreds of hammers into the economy when used methodically.

 

[KMadCandy]

i adore spiritual. for diplomacy nothing comes even close. and when i'm going all out war i find it super useful too, maybe because i'm so bad at wars that it's forgiving of my indecisiveness and mistakes . it is absolutely my favorite and i miss it every time i play without it.

that's partly because i've used it so much that i know how to best apply it, and others i'm not as practiced at getting the most out of, i admit that. but boy oh boy i adore spiritual.

nationhood ... took me a long time to ever try that one. but once i did, i sure like it. it's cheap, it's better in BtS with the spy points, and pushing a button and having toy soldiers instantly appear makes me giggle!

 

[Soneji]

I love spiritual.. being able to slingshot into a religion straight away... being able to switch civics immediately and without cost or anarchy.

Plus that with the Christo Rendetor and your laughing..

I really only play spiritual civs tbh..

Spiritual 4tw! (normally in my case anyway!)

 

[Ahimsadharma]

Spiritual is a brilliant trait to have.
Particularly if you beeline for the Oracle early on in the game ( after establishing 2 cities or so) as it pops you a free tech. I usually try to time it so that by the time the Oracle is done, i've researched Monarchy, so that i can pop Feudalism early on with minimal delay on Iron working.
Since i play mostly as India, it gives me a *huge* boost, since my fast workers are now literally warp-speed workers ( +1 movement AND 50% faster building speed) and popping Feudalism through oracle gets you a 10-15 turns of workers that literally work 2x faster than vanilla workers ( until AI gets to feudalism, which they normally do not before researching Iron working & mathematics.

Plus there is the micro-management bonus in crisis situations- nothing like soemone declaring war on you when you are in a tough spot and instantly switching to vassalage and theocracy. Having +4 starting bonus for military ( plus heroic epic speed multiplier) is enough to offest most UUs at that point, even if you are at same tech-level.

And for the record, organized is a MUCH better trait to have than Financial- sure, with financial, your nice & juicy 'super cities' will produce more money but cities that dont have much gold in their tiles ( and there usually are several in a biggish map) doesnt matter that much about. But with 50% less civic upkeep cost, you are reaping it in regardless of where you plop your city. So it gives far more flexibility in setting up a city, since you are not concerned about weighing the 'gold per tile' option too seriously.

Plus spiritual gives you a fast track to Cristo whatever wonder- it is simply a mindboggling wonder to have and especially if you are India, it is amazing to build it as not only do you enjoy its massive bonuses, you ensure that you are the ONLY civ on the map who never gets anarchy.
That trait is so uber that even if you do not need it, it makes helluva lot of difference if you can just deny the AI that bonus.

 

[Spearthrower]

I personally see spiritual as a middle of the road trait. Not bad like you thought, not great like people in this topic are saying.

I think it safe to say that Monkeyfinger doesn't use the trait to its full effect and therefore doesn't see why it is so powerful.

Not knocking you Mr Finger you are entitled to your opinion .... but the people who are saying its great aren't wrong - they are simply using a different style of play than you... and are therefore gaining more leverage from it.

Especially at Marathon... the first thing I consider prior to starting the game is "Spiritual or Not?" as this will dictate the rest of the game for me.... none of the other traits are so defining.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Or you don't know how to use other traits to their full potential because you're so fixated on doing that for Spiritual. Or you want so hard to make Spiritual good that you're grasping around for advantages that don't really exist (see also: the people actually defending Nationhood and Vassalage, and the ability to switch to them).

Yeah, those are entirely possible too.

 

[seasnake]

No no, spiritual is very good. It complements other traits nicely, Mansa Musa being the perfect example. Dude's a machine in any game.
My favorite is to found as many religions as possible and then get to freedom of religion and use the quick temple to build a bunch of happiness/culture buildings in each city. That is a great way to keep people happy and pursue a legendary culture.

Now, personally I think charismatic is the best trait, because of the extra happiness and quick-promoting units. Still, spiritual does itself justice.

 

[Spearthrower]

Or you don't know how to use other traits to their full potential because you're so fixated on doing that for Spiritual. Or you want so hard to make Spiritual good that you're grasping around for advantages that don't really exist (see also: the people actually defending Nationhood and Vassalage, and the ability to switch to them).

Yeah, those are entirely possible too.

Ok, nevermind - you're right, I don't know how to play.

 

[SwordofStriker]

More often than not I don't use a spiritual leader. However, when I do, the ability to switch civics without anarchy is a great asset that makes it more than a middle of the road trait.

Like others have said, it's best to pick leader traits that complement your play style. If switching civics isn't something you do more than a handful of times per game, then you don't really need a spiritual leader, and other traits might suit you better. On the other hand, if switching civics and focusing on religion are something you like to do, then spiritual is a great trait for you.

As I said before, I don't often use spiritual, but when I do, I adjust my game accordingly and enjoy it immensely.

 

[kniteowl]

Spiritual is pretty good... I generally find it annoying when I'm not spiritual... having to wait or beeline to a certain tech so I can do a double civics switch.

If you're not in the civics screen every 5-10 turns, you're not leveraging the trait at all... that's my opinion... with the exception fo the early game wen most of the civics arn't available.

 

[AnaNg]

Spiritual and Industrious is probably one of the best combinations for a cultural victory, but there are obviously other good ones too. Philosophical combines nicely with spiritual this way too.

I had a lot of fun playing around with Saladin going for an "Always Peace Domination victory" which, of course, means culture creeping until you control the world.

The protective was nice at the beginning for barbs and the religion chasing meant that a TON of my culture came from them and, especially early, around new cities that I "accidentally" settled right next to, was quick and lethal with the fast temples. Think the 1st 5 religions' temples all built in half the time, now that's some culture.

His UB is actually sort of fun (4 specialists with Rep is awful nice that early if you get the 'mids) though really, in that game - ok games, I ran it a few of them, I didn't need it;, I had available priest specialist slots coming out my ears.

B ut the spiritual was awesome for quick building civics and switching back to cultural ones as well as changing religion to court someone I wanted a tech from.

 

[Hawe Hawe]

I am addicted to spiritual too. Thats why i love Ashoka best. You can not only switch immediatly, but you can also afford the High-cost combinations like organized religion or police state/vassalage.
It should also be possible to translate the advantages of spiritual into raw numbers: count the food, hammers and commerce you lose while you spend three turns in anarchy for your total national output!

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Or you don't know how to use other traits to their full potential because you're so fixated on doing that for Spiritual. Or you want so hard to make Spiritual good that you're grasping around for advantages that don't really exist (see also: the people actually defending Nationhood and Vassalage, and the ability to switch to them).

Yeah, those are entirely possible too.

Of course. SpearThrower has no clue how to utilize financial. Spear, you dummy! Didn't you realize how to get another 1 commerce on tiles with 2 on them? Can't believe you don't know how to do this...

You wish you could utilize aggressive, Spear. Ha! In your dreams...

You better study up on how to get cheap settlers/Great Generals with imperialistic, Spear.

And, don't get me started on charismatic...

Get your sh*t together, Spearthrower.

 

[Spearthrower]

I know..... I know.... it's that whole technical complexity of most of the traits being entirely passive and not really having to do a lot.... I just dont get it!!

I keep playing as Aggressive and not building ANY troops- stupid me!

Then I play as Organised... but I play OCC!

Then I think I'll have a nice Industrious game without building any wonders! Oh the ignominy!!


Ok, I've finished with the sarcasm now too!

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

lol. On topic, I started my first spiritual leader game last night thanks to this thread, and it's going amazing! thanx all

 

[dalamb]

Well yeah. To get a free promotion on your units, you need Vassalage OR Theocracy, not both.

Hmm... But if you're seriously warmongering, aren't the XP from both still useful?

Plus spiritual gives you a fast track to Cristo whatever wonder- it is simply a mindboggling wonder to have and especially if you are India, it is amazing to build it as not only do you enjoy its massive bonuses, you ensure that you are the ONLY civ on the map who never gets anarchy.

Where does it say the other spiritual civs stop avoiding anarchy?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

@dalamb: I think Ahimsadharma was trying to say that you want to deny the AI the ability to so freely switch civics rapidly and in the same turn. This is one of the most powerful wonders in the game:

1. Switch to Universal Sufferage, buy a bunch of units
2. Switch to Hereditary Rule/nationhood/slavery/theocracy. Whip units, draft units
3. Switch to free speech/emancipation/free speech
4. End Turn

Wait a few turns for to go down and do it again.

In 10 turns, you can pump out an entire invading army that can take/hold 1-2 coastal cities in one turn.

Also

 

[dalamb]

YOW! I noticed the "no waiting" bit but somehow assumed it was still one switch per turn. Quite the wonder!

 

[methane]

If you are relying on specialists and not aiming for cultural victory the undisputed best route is to make your capital crank out tons of hammers and run bureaucracy for the whole game. Using cottages? Run bureaucracy while they are cottages/hamlets/villages, then go to free speech when enough of them become towns. Want a cultural win? Go FS immediately and never leave it. So even if you are spiritual, if you switch legal civics more than twice during the game, or ever run nationhood or vassalage, you should turn off your computer, castrate yourself, dump plenty of salt in the wound, then slide yourself feet first through a woodchipper. This does not make spiritual look good.

Others have jumped on you, justifiably so, for dumping on nationalism. But I also would like to emphasize that the utility of beauracracy really depends on your map. If you play small maps, the 50% boost to one of your cities (and generally, your best city) is huge, and makes up for the high costs. But for those of us who play huge maps (with 3 times the number of cities), boosting one city's output doesn't make up for the increased costs empire-wide, unless you're really concerned about building a wonder.

I rarely used nationalism (except for brief stretches whenever I played a spiritual leader) before BTS, but now I find myself using it frequently even as a non-spiritual leader. The low costs are spectacular, and that 25% boost to espionage points is significant.

YOW! I noticed the "no waiting" bit but somehow assumed it was still one switch per turn. Quite the wonder!

sadly, the new patch will limit you to one switch per turn, which takes away nearly all of its usefulness for spiritual leaders.