Spy craziness

[Smokeybear]

So I've been playing with spies on since the patch, to see how it's changed. One thing I've noticed, is that once you spend a bunch of gold with a CS and plant a spy on it to try to 'claim' it and start the election rigging circus- usually a cultural CS for me, those are the ones I use the most, and they seem to be the most popular with a lot of other civs... once you have control of it, you'd better not move that spy for any reason whatsoever, or you will lose that CS on the very next turn, to a coup.

Doesn't matter if you have 250 influence there, some yahoo enemy spy will coup it effortlessly once your protective spy is moved away. And unlike the human player who isn't likely to check every turn to see what their coup chances are, the AI always knows the second your spy has left, and when their golden opportunity has arrived.

That has happened to me literally every time I've tried to move one, so far. Once you dedicate a spy to that duty, he is perma-locked into having to stay right there, unless you want to spend many turns and many (MANY) thousands of gold trying to get it back from the damn thieves which are sliming under every rug.

Also, just now, I noticed a culture CS (Warsaw) that showed nobody as an ally, so I dumped 1000 gold onto it and got allied. Very next turn, Babylon pulls a coup on it, and the popups say "Babylon is now the ally of Warsaw". Two seconds later during the same AI turn, another popup says "Babylon is no longer the ally of Warsaw". I go and look at Warsaw's CS screen, and sure enough, nobody is its ally. And of course ALL of my 1000g-worth of influence is gone, wasted. And the SOB didn't even remain allied after knocking me out of it? WTH, over? How can they even do that? Can you un-ally yourself from a CS, or is that just a stupid-AI trick? And why would they want to? Not making any sense at all. Looking at CS screen again, still, nobody is allied with it... <scratches head>.

Grrr. I'm gettin pretty ready to disable spies again, next game. Damn coup crap is getting ridiculous again.

 

[apocalypse105]

THe last part ws proparly babylon throwing just enough money to become ally and didn't had enough gold to maintaine the relationship as a result they lose the city state as a ally and drop some gold on it and lose it again...

And yes another exaple that the AI doesn't play as the same rules... They are actualy programmed to take city states if it doesn't has a spy and will move their spies constantly ...

And coups are broken in my opion I've made a topic about instead of fixing it they buffed it its now more effective when there is no defensive spy

 

[Smokeybear]

THe last part ws proparly babylon throwing just enough money to become ally and didn't had enough gold to maintaine the relationship as a result they lose the city state as a ally and drop some gold on it and lose it again...

No, it was a coup, not a buyout. When you succeed at a coup, whether player or AI, you automatically become the ally of that CS, and it shouldn't be possible to fall from ally to only friend in the same turn, during a successfully coup. I do not believe it is possible. Which is why I'm still scratching my head over that one. The next turn after? Maybe, I don't know. But definitely not in the same turn.

 

[Adjuvant]

I understand the frustration, but it's not effortless if you have 250. Chance of coup success is proportionate to your influence and theirs. If they pay to be 247 and coup attempt, they have a pretty good chance of success. I really doubt they have, like 30, and are succeeding.

Spending 1k gold and losing to a coup is a little frustrating, but remember, unless you have patronage or the CS is asking for funding, 1k isn't "that much" influence. 55? I think. That coup chance, even from 0, is within parameters wherein there's little surprise at success, especially if the CS tossed a measly 250 in before the coup.

Influence degradation occurs after you conclude your turn. Same for AI.

 

[Moriarte]

Perhaps Nebby asked for a small tribute after the coup? Don't know if that's possible, just a thought.

 

[Halcyan2]

I understand the frustration, but it's not effortless if you have 250. Chance of coup success is proportionate to your influence and theirs. If they pay to be 247 and coup attempt, they have a pretty good chance of success. I really doubt they have, like 30, and are succeeding.

Spending 1k gold and losing to a coup is a little frustrating, but remember, unless you have patronage or the CS is asking for funding, 1k isn't "that much" influence. 55? I think. That coup chance, even from 0, is within parameters wherein there's little surprise at success, especially if the CS tossed a measly 250 in before the coup.

Influence degradation occurs after you conclude your turn. Same for AI.

Eh, coups seem to be a lot easier for the AI than for the player.

One time I had a spy in an allied CS and someone did a coup bringing me down to 0 Influence (when I had over 60). When I checked what my chance for couping in that exact city, it was 0%.

I've also had cases where a civilization I was at war with managed to coup city states, which instantly switched sides. After the coup, I was at -60 influence. So since I was over 60 before the coup, they seem to be doing reasonably well at couping from -60 to 60+, in a city state that they are warring with.

 

[Adjuvant]

Sometimes you need to pay, then do the coup. The AI is coded this way, too.

 

[Smokeybear]

Perhaps Nebby asked for a small tribute after the coup? Don't know if that's possible, just a thought.

Hmmm, that could be it (if it is possible to demand tribute from an ally CS?), but why would you go to all the trouble to coup a CS just to demand tribute and instantly lose ally status? They could have done that without couping first. Stupid barstids.

 

[Socratatus]

There`s no doubt that if you`re not getting on with an AI and you take a CS, it will do it`s best to take away that CS from you, even if it don`t need it. That`s why it drops it afterwards once you`ve lost it. I don`t mind it. If it don`t like you then it`s doing all it can to screw things up for you out of spite... Very Human actually.

I find that I have to have an early system if there are many CS` around me. I`ll get them on my side fast using the `CS patron` policy (essential) and things get much easier. If you don`t and the AI gets a hold of those CS` around you, you`ll be in dire trouble, especially if he then declares war since City states are then locked against you.

AS for the spies, you could use England which gives an extra spy- Very useful.

 

[kaspergm]

Hmmm, that could be it (if it is possible to demand tribute from an ally CS?), but why would you go to all the trouble to coup a CS just to demand tribute and instantly lose ally status? They could have done that without couping first. Stupid barstids.

Well by doing it this way, they would rob you of the influence you had with the CS, basically robbing you of 1000 Gold, so if this was indeed the thing they did, you might say it was a very clever move.

... or it might just being the irrational behaviour of the AI conincidentally working in its favour.

Btw. you can take tribute from an allied CS. I did that once, just to test. It will cost you some influence and clear all waiting missions with them, but at least pre-G&K that was even sometimes worth it (if there were three "kill that CS" quests waiting).

 

[Smokeybear]

There`s no doubt that if you`re not getting on with an AI and you take a CS, it will do it`s best to take away that CS from you, even if it don`t need it. That`s why it drops it afterwards once you`ve lost it. I don`t mind it. If it don`t like you then it`s doing all it can to screw things up for you out of spite... Very Human actually.

I find that I have to have an early system if there are many CS` around me. I`ll get them on my side fast using the `CS patron` policy (essential) and things get much easier. If you don`t and the AI gets a hold of those CS` around you, you`ll be in dire trouble, especially if he then declares war since City states are then locked against you.

AS for the spies, you could use England which gives an extra spy- Very useful.

[X] Disable Spies

Even more useful. Gotta say, the spy game has been a lot more useful for my AI enemies than for me most of the time, and cost me far more billions of gold than if it was turned off entirely. Mostly, it's just been a costly, annoying PITA. The only time it's been truly helpful, was when I used all of my spies at the end of one game to help track down an opponent's rocket factories and help take them out with time running out... my one Bond moment from them. Yeah, that one was epic.

 

[kaspergm]

[X] Disable Spies

Even more useful. Gotta say, the spy game has been a lot more useful for my AI enemies than for me most of the time, and cost me far more billions of gold than if it was turned off entirely. Mostly, it's just been a costly, annoying PITA.

I fully second that. In any given game, I always lose out more to Espionage than I get back, and on top of that it's annyoing like hell, so I've also turned it off for the last many games, which is a real relief.

 

[Smokeybear]

I fully second that. In any given game, I always lose out more to Espionage than I get back, and on top of that it's annyoing like hell, so I've also turned it off for the last many games, which is a real relief.

No kidding. Like the time I patiently saved up 2k gold over many turns, in order to buy ally status with two of the very few culture CS's on the map- and then the next turn that evil, unforgivable spy-ho Elizabeth couped them both, just because she could. I've never come so close to physical keyboard-through-something abuse in all my days of gaming. Ever. And we weren't even at war! She's just a solid beach... bunny.

 

[wannabewarlord]

Chance of coup success is proportionate to your influence and theirs. If they pay to be 247 and coup attempt, they have a pretty good chance of success. I really doubt they have, like 30, and are succeeding.

I thought that was the case too. But as you swap influence with the couping AI, you can exactly see where they were. So there goes Austria, couping my 126 allied city state and what do I get? 1. Yes, exactly 1! So they were couping with 1 influence against my 126 influence and suceeded? Way to go RNG. I hope this was an exception

 

[Halcyan2]

I thought that was the case too. But as you swap influence with the couping AI, you can exactly see where they were. So there goes Austria, couping my 126 allied city state and what do I get? 1. Yes, exactly 1! So they were couping with 1 influence against my 126 influence and suceeded? Way to go RNG. I hope this was an exception

No it's not an exception. This sort of thing is happening to me a lot as well.

At least it's better than the -60 I got when a civ I was warring with managed to coup an allied city state!

 

[Tachii]

Happens to me, too. Had like 100+ influence once, then turned to below friends. I hear the fall patch said something about they'd coup less if they know their chance are slim but it seem like it's still happening.

I dunno about disabling the whole thing tho. One of the aspects IS to benefit the AI more since in vanilla it's often too easy for a human player to ally the entire map of CS and dominate everybody in tech (any level below Diety).

 

[Gort]

Humans tend to be in first place (or quit) in single player. The AI probably focuses its spies on the person who's in first place more than anyone else. Therefore, you probably are getting hit by spies a lot.

That's fine, though, the game needed some kind of rubber-banding.

 

[Socratatus]

Personally I enjoy the spy stuff. Sun Tzu mentioned using spies first and foremost and I do. The AI isn`t such a threat (although i`m not on the high levels yet).

I only wish spying was much more extensive. There`s so little you can do with them, it`s a real opportunity missed by the Devs. Also few more, say 10, would be better.

 

[Segwin]

I find that I have to have an early system if there are many CS` around me. I`ll get them on my side fast using the `CS patron` policy (essential) and things get much easier.

What is the CS patron policy?

 

[Socratatus]

What is the CS patron policy?

The Patronage Social Policy?

You have the game I hope?