Spy Ideas

[Zaimejs]

With this North Korea v. South Korea thing... I just thought of a couple other covert things I'd like to do.

1. Use a spy to sabotage your own stuff but make it look like an enemy did it so you could declare war without losing face with other Civs. And even having Civs that have a pact or allegiance drop the allegiance due to the mitigating circumstance. Create a 9/11 or a Gulf of Tonkan or something like that.

2. Use a spy to get two countries to start a war against one another... a double agent to make one country thing that another is doing them wrong. So I would send a spy to Ghengis' city, and commit some act... but make it look like it was Gandhi. Cool?

I'm sure there are others, but I really want to be able to make these happen.

 

[Ahriman]

They've said espionage is out for Civ5.

 

[dot]

They've said modability will be enhanced for Civ5.

 

[Ahriman]

Modability doesn't mean you can easily add in entire new mechanics from scratch (and get the AI to understand them well).

Grafting the BTS espionage system onto vanilla Civ4 would be a huge PITA.

 

[Suho1004]

With this North Korea v. South Korea thing... I just thought of a couple other covert things I'd like to do.

1. Use a spy to sabotage your own stuff but make it look like an enemy did it so you could declare war without losing face with other Civs. And even having Civs that have a pact or allegiance drop the allegiance due to the mitigating circumstance. Create a 9/11 or a Gulf of Tonkan or something like that.

OK, hold up. I may be reading way too much into this, and forgive me if that is the case... but are you suggesting that South Korea sank their own ship in order to increase tensions with North Korea? (Or, for that matter, that the U.S. government was behind the 9/11 attacks?) I'm curious, because that sounds like what you are suggesting.

Sorry if I'm running the risk of making things political here, but... well, the political situation where I am is a bit tense right now. Maybe I'm a little sensitive about this.

 

[MrBullterrier]

Personally I would like to see a more complex spy system as well, but in order to do what you are suggesting the whole unit based mechanic will probably have to be substituted for something else.
Spies in Civ4 are more city-manipulation oriented, even though it's possible to make a rival government change its civics and religion. When governing an empire and protecting it from others through an intelligence service, I believe it might be more apt to be in control of an agency, rather than individual units. The spy unit, while an interesting and at times amusing game mechanic, doesn't really provide the level of influence and power, which a developed spying network with people spread widely can give. Perhaps it's because of this, that spies were a bit of a dissapointment, although they tried to improve them in the expansions.
All in all,I think that if spying in Civ5 is to have any of the more intricate ways the trade is known for, then it should be represented in the form of an organisation within the government, which can be upgraded and invested in.

 

[Chalks]

They've said espionage is out for Civ5.

It's possible that the concept will still be present as part of the diplomacy system or something.

 

[Ahriman]

It's possible that the concept will still be present as part of the diplomacy system or something.

Its possible, but seems unlikely. For other features getting cut (like religion) they have made pains to say that it will still be in the game in some form.

They've said no such thing about espionage.

Which is fine by me; the overall impact of espionage on the history of civilizations is pretty small.

 

[Chalks]

I thought they'd confirmed that religion was being rolled into the civics replacement?

I'm not sure if espionage will get the same treatment but it's possible. I never liked the "spy unit" micromanagement but the general concept has influenced modern warfare.

 

[Ahriman]

Right, which is my point. They said religion was being cut as it existed, but included in another form.
And they just said espionage was being cut.

Mild implication (far from definite) is that espionage *isn't* being included in another form, or they would have said so.

 

[Chalks]

Sorry, I misread you. Yeah, I see what you mean.

I've never liked the implementation of espionage in the game but I'd be sad to see it gone entirely.

 

[Crazy George]

An Espionage Point System is not the same thing as a Spy Unit.

In C5, gold will be able to purchase territory (something only culture could do previously). Gold will be able to buy Research Pacts (thus provding yet another means of exchanging gold for beakers). Continuing this trend (of allowing gold to do more), it's a small step to assume (and to my knowledge not contradicted) that gold will simply replace Espionage Points in total.

Thus the statement, C5 will not have Espionage is not inherently contradictory with C5 having a Spy Unit if one assumes that Espionage means Espionage Points and not everything that could possibly be interpreted as being Espionage. (Maybe I missed the article that said C5 wouldn't have Spy or Diplomatic Units, would love to see a link if I did).

Furthermore, everything Zaimejs has requested in his OP could easily be implemented by making a small change to the Privateer Unit: namely, allowing Privateers to fly under the flags of foreign nations, something Pirates have been known to do. If such a Privateer were to raze an improvement, it would appear to all observers that the country whose flag is was flying at the time had committed the atrocity (less some chance the truth be known).

If Privateers can do this on the sea, another unit type could do this on dry land (call them Raiders).

Not strictly Spy Abilities, but Unit Abilities I would like to see include:

Units who can remain in enemy territory (on top of that Iron Mine or whatever) after war has been declared.

Units who are invisible (ala Submarines) except on land.

 

[Ahriman]

It seems like a bit of a reach to think that they won't have espionage but will still have spy units.

Its possible, but hardly seems likely.

If such a Privateer were to raze an improvement, it would appear to all observers that the country whose flag is was flying at the time had committed the atrocity (less some chance the truth be known).

Can you please point to a historic example where country A declared war on coutnry B because of agents provocateurs from country C pretending to be from country B? I know of some cases where a country X attacked country Y claiming a cassus belli from alleged attacks from Y on X that were really by agents of X, but never a THIRD party situation.

This just doesn't sound very historic.

 

[Zaimejs]

You wouldn't know if it happened. I'm pointing to the sinking of the Maine, which many people believe was a self-perpetrated act in order to get the war going.

I love the idea of special ops troops who can function beyond enemy lines. Paratroopers with a broader range would be cool too. Drop them in on the mines and other important stuff.

Good ideas! I don't like the espionage system much either. I just don't get it. I never get how foreign countries can spy tech., but I never can. Seems like that should be first on the list.

 

[ignacz]

Is espionage out altogether?

I never liked the espionage points/influence system implemented in 4. But are they eliminating the spy unit too?

That is an effective and simple way to incorporate espionage in a straightforward way.

 

[mjs0]

It seems like a bit of a reach to think that they won't have espionage but will still have spy units.

Its possible, but hardly seems likely.

You may be right...but I'm pretty sure this is what happened when Civ4 vanilla was released.
The espionage system from Civ3 vanished but spies were still there with limited capabilities.

 

[Ahriman]

You wouldn't know if it happened.

There are plenty of things that weren't known at the time which are found out afterwards. For example... we know all kinds of things about the history of espionage.

More importantly, absence of an event is not evidence for its occurrence.

I'm pointing to the sinking of the Maine, which many people believe was a self-perpetrated act in order to get the war going.

Did you read what I said?

I know of some cases where a country X attacked country Y claiming a cassus belli from alleged attacks from Y on X that were really by agents of X, but never a THIRD party situation.

 

[Avs]

Keeping this idea on track here:

1. Espionage is cool, too bad BTS wasn't able to make this more of a natural thing or a worthy investment in Civ4.
2. Sabatoging your own stuff doesnt work against an AI. It only makes you weaker. Think about this from a player perspective.
3. This would be interesting in a multiplayer game, where deception and alliances can make all the difference. However, this doesn't work for diplomacy purposes. How would you know whether someone attacked your ship or they killed their own ship. Because Civ tells you this.

Imagine, its your turn. You move your units. Select a tank, blow it up. A pop up allows you to choose which faction to blame. Who's going to believe you? Real players? The AI? It'd be exploitable. It wouldn't make sense. And if it was your sworn enemy you were trying to start a fight with, why not just attack him anyways. Civilization doesn't try to emulate todays diplomacy where several countries have nuclear weapons, rogue countries threaten others with nuclear development, and ships are sinking left and right randomly.

Remember, if North Korea was playing Civ, they'd know if they sunk that ship or not. If we did it, we'd know. We're talking about it like it from none of each country's perspective. If it was Civ, we'd know, and it wouldn't be an issue to assume.


Speaking of which, there are plenty of spy ideas that would be useful! Things such as:

1. Stealing tech (you'd steal some beakers but not the actual tech, to add to your own tech research, or slow his tech research down. Or copy his research without slowing his down, and avoid detection more.)
2. Create bad random events! (You know, the ones that mean you have to pay up some cash, or lose population. Best of all, here you wouldn't be able to tell whether its the game or a player unless it kept happening). Or better yet, crash the stock economy with bad advice, or create a celebrity scandal.


Anyways, war and peace are not super complexity, oh my gosh I need to convince the entire country that war is the only option; in Civ. In real life, its different. So in Civ, those options won' fit in the game.

 

[chongli]

It seems like a bit of a reach to think that they won't have espionage but will still have spy units.

Its possible, but hardly seems likely.

Civ 1-3 did not have the espionage point system but did have spies (including diplomats in the early games). It only seems unlikely if you treat the series as a progression of games (many people do) rather than treating Civ 5 as a distinct entity that may in fact borrow ideas from any one of the past games or include features not present in any of them.

It's incredibly frustrating how vague a lot of the information they've released really is, we're left to speculate on so much. I guess this helps them sustain interest in the game.

 

[Crazy George]

A Spy could sit on a Resource and steal it from another player.

I would also like Spies to be able to effect diplomatic modifiers. But in truth, I believe this would work out easier on the trade screen. As in:

How much for a +1 modifier, Monty?