SQ2: Schizophrenic Shaka

I was going to play this past weekend but you scooped it from underneath me again and I didn't want to duplicate turns. I can't play till Monday.

Why are you building muskets, coastal fortresses and colloseums? Not every city needs a defender. In fact, with rails you need even less.
Rax in cities that can't produce units? Can the courts pay for themselves?

Why did you choose nationalism for a tech?
 
Remember, I'm not the best civ player in the world. I just build stuff that looks like it needs to built, and Barracks seem important. And, as you can see, I'm not right very often. Colloseum didn't seem to need to be, but all the cities I changed were building either Colloseum, Couthouse, or Cathedral. But I'm not doing bad for a Chieftain (although I'm starting to play Warlord games) player playing on Emperor level. And I scooped it out from under you? Please. You had time to post a "got it". Mine was on the 21st. I said I would take it if no one else did by then on the 19th. Did you think that was a "got it"? Why I chose nat: Of the 4 techs I could have chosen, it seemed the best one. Plus this way we don't have to trade to get it.

Oh, and, the rest of the set:

Turn 8 (1130 AD):
-check diplo: all AI's have nat, but none have steam.

IBT:
-GZ-PZ war ends. From the looks of the map, not much happened in the war.
Peace.JPG


Turn 9 (1140 AD):
-Change remote to frigate as annoying barb galleys are nearby.

IBT:
-Bane: Couthouse->Colloseum
-flipper: Courthouse->rax

Turn 10 (1150 AD):
zzz

Here's a look at our RR system (which I hope you can see):
railroad.JPG


For next turn:
-As you can see, Nat finishes next turn. Muskets can become rifles soon.
-We need to sell the AI steam before they get it, which will probably be during the next player's turnset. Get whatever you can from them.
-Continue building RR's until all our cities our connected- and then maybe build more...

And the save.
 
choxorn said:
-MM Hlobane 2: All of its 11 citizens were taxmen. :eek: it can use the 8 city squares it has without going into disorder, but is still starving. I rush the temple here so it can use its other citizens (I forgot to MM it again to do this after culture grew, though- :lol: next player can do this)
Hlobane.JPG
What advantage do you get from using all the squares?
The city was going to starve anyway, whether it is 1 food short or 20 it will still lose only 1 pop point.
With 11 taxmen it would still have produced 1 shield, it would have dropped uncorrupted commerce from 2 to 1, but made up for it with 11 tax, you had 3, so overall your changes cost 7 gold for no gain. (edit - to be strictly correct 8gold cost with 1 science gain as commerce was in science)

P.S.
Where is everybody? No one but me has posted for the last five days.
They were waiting for you to post so they could comment :mischief:
 
Maybe we don't get an advantage, but if lighthouse grows big enough, we might. I also thought maybe we could get more gold :mischief: Apparently not, and I was too lazy to MM it back to the way it was. At least this way, it doesn't starve.
 
choxorn said:
Maybe we don't get an advantage, but if lighthouse grows big enough, we might. I also thought maybe we could get more gold :mischief: Apparently not, and I was too lazy to MM it back to the way it was. At least this way, it doesn't starve.

Why dont you want it to starve?

This is a corrupt city, how is it helping our empire?

The best help it can be is supporting as many specialists as possible. Currently that is 3 specialists. If 5 grass tiles are irrigated and railed it could support 6 specialists. Whilst it doesnt have enough food to support current pop, it may as well put all citizens to specialists until it reaches a size where it has the food to support the pop.
 
choxorn, I think I wrote in my turnlog that I deliberately set all the citizens in Hlobane 2 to taxmen. I suppose I didn't explain clearly enough why I did that, but yes, the reason is very much what Andronicus has said: the city was going to starve anyway, and it was so corrupt that the only way it would be useful was to make it a specialist farm. You do this by irrigating and railroading every tile so that it has a minimal number of citizens harvesting food, with the rest of them as scientists or taxmen.

I would not have rush built a temple there; the city will likely flip back to pink in a few turns and we would have just wasted a bunch of gold. The lighthouse does not give us culture, and we won't get any good tiles with cultural expansion. If we do get expansion, I recommend that the temple be sold immediately.

Regarding nationalism: there are extremely few situations where I would opt to self-research nationalism. In fact, I've probably only done it once or twice excluding always war games and the nationalist variant, where researching nationalism is required as a handicap to the human player. Let's just look at what nationalism gives us, and you'll see why it's not worth it:

1. Riflemen. Personally I find this to be the single most annoying unit in the game, as the AI loves to build them, yet they're no good for us. Attack strength of 2 is worthless, and if you need them for defense it probably means you don't have enough offensive units. Infantry are only 2 techs away and they are far, far better at both defense and offense. Usually the only way I get riflemen is by upgrading muskets, pikes, spears, etc, and even then I'd much rather upgrade to infantry.
2. Mutual protection pacts & trade embargoes. This is totally pointless, as we can negotiate these agreements with the AI when they get nationalism; we do not need the tech ourselves for doing that.
3. Drafting citizens. I've only done this in a few games, and I think I also lost those. This is only necessary when you are in really awful shape, getting pounded by the AI - clearly not the situation here.
4. Mobilization. OK, I'll admit that this is a good reason to get the tech sometimes, and I've used it occasionally as well. But in our case, it is no good - we do not need huge numbers of units as we will probably try to avoid wars, and the culture penalty is going to hurt us as it makes cities more likely to flip to the AI.
5. Opens up the communism and espionage techs. I think this is often the only reason I actually bother to get nationalism at all in most of my games. But since the AI almost always researches nationalism first when they reach the Industrial Age, I can usually count on trading with them for it. And since we are going for diplomatic victory, it becomes even more important that we do not waste time with optional techs during the IA (except maybe sanitation) because it will delay our research for fission.

As for some of the other impovements - I'll admit that I build barracks in distant cities sometimes, just for the sake of having a place to heal and upgrade in times of war. But generally this is negated after rails come along.

Courthouses do have their place in this game, but they should be used carefully and are probably not going to be a priority. If a city is getting one shield or gold per turn and will likely only get up to 2 or 3 of them with a courthouse, it's not worth it - just let it build workers instead.

Colosseums, in my opinion, are the worst of the happiness improvements. They cost 2 gold in upkeep and only produce 2 happy faces. Cathedrals are very marginally worthwhile, because they produce 3 happy faces at the cost of 2 gold in upkeep, and it would take 3 gold to do the same with the lux slider. Temples are only worthwhile for cheap culture or to make cathedrals available. Because of all this effort involved, in non-cultural games I try to avoid building these at all and simply the lux slider. In this game, culture is important, but even so, colosseums are at the bottom of the list of cultural buildings.

Finally, don't be afraid to leave some cities undefended. Unless you are in monarchy or communism, where you can use units as military police, there is no reason to keep a garrison in every city, and especially not in cities deep in your territory that are not at all vulnerable to AI attack. Yes, putting units there will help prevent flips, but it also means that you lose more units if that city decides to flip anyway - so you'll have to make that call carefully.

So I hope as you become more experienced with Civ 3, you'll realize that there are certain techs that are generally not worth researching yourself because they can be acquired from the AI quite easily. For me, this usually means bronze working, monotheism, theology, astronomy, and nationalism. And I hope you also learn from this how to deal with distant, corrupt cities.

Now, with all that said, it seems like I'll be rather busy for the next few days, so may someone else please continue this game while I get hounded by miscellaneous RL matters...
 
Can you please stop bugging me about my n00b mistakes? You guys can do your best to fix them on your sets. At least I don't totally screw up. :cry: I only play sets of this game when no one else will take it. As you know, I still have quite a bit to learn about this game. Also, with the Hlobane thingy. What good can the gold do if the city starves every turn? If kept at tax collectors, there would be one citizen left at the end of my set. So can we please stop talking about my turnset?? :cry:
 
lurker's comment: You need not take these comments personally, choxorn. Good players are always looking for ways to improve their game, and a great way to do that is to make mistakes and then have someone point out what the mistake was and how it could be fixed. In this case, there's a fair amount of valuable information here on the use of specialist cities, i.e. taxman/scientist farms. It might be worthwhile to consider the benefit of setting up such a thing in Hlobane 2. And I'm not even bringing up all the other worthy advice that Sima Qian and others have just offered.
 
lurker's comment:
I must admit that I had a hard time learning that cities do not have to be growing to be productive. I don't view starving as a good thing, and try to avoid it, but sometimes it can't be helped. Specialist farms are a rather recent tool for me.

Lots of things to learn from this thread, since this is no ordinary game.
 
choxorn said:
Can you please stop bugging me about my n00b mistakes?
lurker's comment: Nobody's trying to "bug" you, choxorn. If nobody told you that you'd made mistakes, you'd think you were doing the right thing and continue to make the same mistakes over and over. We're all trying to help you to slow down, ask questions, and learn to be a better player.
 
I'm only bugged by the fact that I made at least 5 of them. I don't want anybody else to talk about them becuase Whomp and SQ already have- I don't want it rubbed in more. ;) I'm not really taking these personally- really, I'm not.
 
Okay I just took a look on this SGame . ( cannot get some sleep :( )
I saw in the screenie choxorn posted , that Shizounguin building a Courthouse , and I really dont understand why , where you are at minus and you're trying to do it more worst .
as Whomp said , why should you build rax in cities that won't ever produce units . cities that will produce a Cavalary in 90 turns . so you pay 90gold for this Cavalry that probably will die soon ;) .

Guys Colosseum demand you to pay 2gpt ! what for ? I don't remmember where I saw some good player was explaining about all this stuff with city improvements .
I learned that it's not even neccessary to build Temple in every border city ,
Some of you probably will say it makes content faces , ok so raise your lux slider but sell all your temples . what I was doing , is building a Temple , waiting for culture expanding and then selling the Temple .
I still would build Library , but only in low-Corrupted cities like my Capitol , 2nd city etc ..
you better build more units , conquer lands and you'll have more gold . ( I don't like the cities that in your empire , the Orange guys )

@Whomp - is'nt it good to leave at least one guard unit in each city , to prevent riot ?
 
Yeah, and it's nessecary to have a defender or two per city in the AA to protect from barbs.
 
Oops, double post. Delete this one. ;)
 
goodsmell said:
@Whomp - is'nt it good to leave at least one guard unit in each city , to prevent riot ?
There are no units required in cities as MP's when you're in a republic and barbs only pop up out of darkness.
Rails allow us to run a much leaner military that is focused primarily on cavs, a few defensive units and arty (IE non raxed cities).

I'll be home tomorrow so I can try to get a set in sometime this week.
 
True, but one of the AI could attack from the other side of the world. And almost all of those cities were coastal.
 
choxorn said:
True, but one of the AI could attack from the other side of the world. And almost all of those cities were coastal.
Not to worry till marines unless there be vikes out there :viking:
If AI lands, rails allows an immed resonse to place a couple of defenders or better still remove the intruders with attackers. Of course in this game our object is diplomatic victory so a more negotiated settlement may be in order :mischief:
 
Units can't attack undefended cities from the sea without marine ability?
 
choxorn said:
Units can't attack undefended cities from the sea without marine ability?

lurker's comment: Nope, you have to have marines to attack from the sea ... with the exception of the Viking berserk. (Which could make them big trouble if the AI ever figured out how to attack with them properly.) With marines or berserks, you can even stay in your transport ship and attack from there. Very handy. Without a unit with marine capability, you can shell a one tile island city to powder, and you still can't land.
 
choxorn said:
Units can't attack undefended cities from the sea without marine ability?

No. They can bombard the crap out of those cities, but won't be able to attack.

The AI does like to land units next to undefended cities, but if you have rails in place that will be nothing to worry about.
 
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