Squatting Barbarians

[Sarisin]

Yes, fellow FFH2ers, I am proposing a change be made to the option previously referred to as Raging Barbarians. They just ain't doin' much raging in the games I'm playing. I realize that game settings might have a lot to do with this and I have only played a grand total of five games of Shadow (but I play at Epic/Marathon - my bad, I guess).

Please consider:

If you select the option for Barbarian Cities to be around from turn 1 you are definitely in for Squatting Barbarians. It is not uncommon to get 50+ barb cities on a huge land map. To illustrate how ridiculous it can become I was out razing and sanctifying the many barb cities near my border. I took down one named Kabalhag or something like that. Imagine my amazement when the next city I came to was named, you guessed it, Kabalhag. They must have had so many barb cities they ran out of names.

Each of these cities needs two or more barb defenders. I've seen some with so many defenders the list truncates. All Squatting Barbarians, the lot of them!

Then, you have this bizarre notion of having real barb units pulling guard duty on goodie huts and lairs. In my current game I actually found 4 units stacked on a damn goodie hut! They must have been guarding whatever it was Nicholas Cage was looking for in his movie. I'm sure we have all witnessed the bizarre, yet squatting behavior of the great and powerful Orthus guarding a goodie hut or Bear Den. Just sad!

Really, in my games, the only barb units doing any raging are the Bears. Yes, so many Bears, if you replaced each with just a Goblin or a Warrior the world would be in deep doodoo. Nothing is more fun than having to wade through scores of Bears when you step outside your borders.

The final result is that you do get somewhat of a delayed rush of barbs in Shadow. However, after barb defenders have been selected for all the cities (starting, spawned and, hey, when was the last time you saw the barbs raze instead of move into a city?), being assigned guard duty for all the lairs and goodie huts, and been replaced by the Bear Army, you have nothing close to Raging Barbarians in the middle-late game.

You can rack up XP killing Bears and they will not enter your lands, but that gets really tedious after awhile.

What can we do to get those Barbarians really mad again? Shouldn't they be raging around the map wreaking havoc instead of building the Forbidden Palace and other Wonders, having Golden Ages, and popping up Great Persons left and right? Are they mean, raging fighting units, or just squatting farmers in all their cities named Kabalhag?

Bring back the bad guys, I say!

But how?

Over to you, no squatting allowed.

PS. A start might be to slow down the spawning rate of barb cities and only let them raze rather than capture cities. Also, let the Bears guard their own damn dens!

 

[julko]

Raging Barbs are maybe not strong enough for human player, but Ai seems fall like trees to this option. So vith stronger RB there will be lots of conqest victories arond year 230-250 for human player(at epic speed), cause no AI civ will remain. AI seems to not respond to RB, trying to spam settlers and lose them.

 

[Blakmane]

the AI civs in my raging barbs games never seem to have any trouble with them. I play on normal/monarch, and i've never seen a single civ fall to the raging barb horde. The orcs never get into large enough stacks, and end up just suiciding into cities packed with hundreds of warriors/axemen/hunters.

 

[julko]

So try my map called "map where Evil rules" or Nikis's map with RB on and you will see...

 

[Aradiel]

Yes, fellow FFH2ers, I am proposing a change be made to the option previously referred to as Raging Barbarians...[]
I took down one named Kabalhag or something like that. Imagine my amazement when the next city I came to was named, you guessed it, Kabalhag. They must have had so many barb cities they ran out of names...[]
Then, you have this bizarre notion of having real barb units pulling guard duty on goodie huts and lairs. In my current game I actually found 4 units stacked on a damn goodie hut! They must have been guarding whatever it was Nicholas Cage was looking for in his movie...[]
Bring back the bad guys, I say!
But how?

Roflmao As the poster before me suggested, try nikis map with rb and epic, most of the ais will be exterminated by 150s-200. In my current game on monarch/normal Rbs, barbarian world on that specific map, 1 ai is already down, 2 lost their capitals and are about to get downed, and with that increasing power vaccum more might get in trouble as well. I do agree that barbarians need to be a bigger threat, like the lichking or orthus there could be other barbarian heros wo lead massive assaults not just single occurances.
Although it really depends on the map. I have seen about 20 units of barbs going for 1 city, the problem is the dont stack they attack one or two at a turn instead of forming a massive army. i also encountered 4 bear units when i wanted to build a new settlement around turn 70, its a bit ridicoulos as normally you would not be able to overcome so many at once in the start.

Like acheron spawns in a barbarian city we could use more special events, barbarian settlements that are generated at precious spots guarded by unique units and base for barbarian raids, also i would like to see more pirates,
barbarian isle settlements that send out their raiding partys etc, those would have a non aggression to lanun of course

 

[Sarisin]

Raging Barbs are maybe not strong enough for human player, but Ai seems fall like trees to this option. So vith stronger RB there will be lots of conqest victories arond year 230-250 for human player(at epic speed), cause no AI civ will remain. AI seems to not respond to RB, trying to spam settlers and lose them.

I agree with this. In every game I have played AI civs have been mowed down quickly as they still are in the expand, but don't defend mode. In the EARLY game they get knocked out. However, if they survive the initial onslaught, the barbs become squatting instead of raging as I described and they can expand at will. No Bears will invade their territory.

I am at turn 890 in my Marathon game right now and I can honestly say I have not seen a single barb unit other than Bears in open territory. The only real barb units are defending the many, many barb cities.

It would be rather easy for me to knock out the the 5 (of 9) remaining AI civs, but I want to play it out a little longer and see if the barbs ever muster an attacking force. Or, I might build Nature's Revolt to add a few more Bears!

 

[Sarisin]

Roflmao As the poster before me suggested, try nikis map with rb and epic, most of the ais will be exterminated by 150s-200. In my current game on monarch/normal Rbs, barbarian world on that specific map, 1 ai is already down, 2 lost their capitals and are about to get downed, and with that increasing power vaccum more might get in trouble as well. I do agree that barbarians need to be a bigger threat, like the lichking or orthus there could be other barbarian heros wo lead massive assaults not just single occurances.
Although it really depends on the map. I have seen about 20 units of barbs going for 1 city, the problem is the dont stack they attack one or two at a turn instead of forming a massive army. i also encountered 4 bear units when i wanted to build a new settlement around turn 70, its a bit ridicoulos as normally you would not be able to overcome so many at once in the start.

Like acheron spawns in a barbarian city we could use more special events, barbarian settlements that are generated at precious spots guarded by unique units and base for barbarian raids, also i would like to see more pirates,
barbarian isle settlements that send out their raiding partys etc, those would have a non aggression to lanun of course

I've tried Nikis' map and didn't notice much of a difference in terms of raging barbs from the usual Huge Fantasy Realm map I normally use. Nice map, though! I would like to try the others if I can find them.

So, in your opinion what makes these maps more challenging with the barbs, and do you see any squatting going on as I described?

 

[Aradiel]

If you play as doviello, amurite, kuriotate, or (auric ulvin) on Nikis map with the barbarian options on you will notice significant problems. However there is no stackbuilding really. The problem is the ai cannot handle that continous attacks and dies.

 

[Caradoc]

It appears to me that with Raging Barbarians and Barbarian World, the vast majority of attackers come from dwellings rather than generating in the dark places on the map. I see lots more Lizards and Skeletons, but lots less Orcs and Goblins.

 

[Sarisin]

It appears to me that with Raging Barbarians and Barbarian World, the vast majority of attackers come from dwellings rather than generating in the dark places on the map. I see lots more Lizards and Skeletons, but lots less Orcs and Goblins.

I agree with you in the EARLY game, charles. However, as the game progresses I would love to see an occasional Lizardman or Skeleton enter my borders. It's only Bears, Bears, Bears, and squatting barbs.

I am approaching turn 1,000 in my Marathon game and I can say it has easily been 300 turns since a barb unit entered my borders.

 

[Caradoc]

I agree with you in the EARLY game, charles. However, as the game progresses I would love to see an occasional Lizardman or Skeleton enter my borders. It's only Bears, Bears, Bears, and squatting barbs.

I am approaching turn 1,000 in my Marathon game and I can say it has easily been 300 turns since a barb unit entered my borders.

My point is that the Lizzies and Skellies seem to be coming from remote dwellings and the spawn rate for uncharted areas is probably now set very low. Otherwise there would be more Orcs and Goblins. So it's not the lazy town squatting Barbarians that is the problem, but their infertile cousins in the boondocks.

I use a map program that places a good assortment of animals on the map at the start, so I get as many Lions as Bears. (Both populations, I think, coming from Dens built by those spawned in the first few turns.)

 

[Chip56]

Maybe we should give the barb leader the scorched earth trait?
That would solve those:
"Im the mighty Orthus and now that I conquered your puny city I will...ähmmm... take a soft cushion seat and smoke weat till somebody comes and burns my new comfortable home"
"Im one of the 4 riders and that I conquered your puny city I will plant a tree in the backyard of my garden, plant some flowers in front of the main door and buy a "my home is my castle" doormat."

 

[skallben]

Maybe it's just me but in three Shadow games I have seen nowhere close the same same amounts of barbarians hordes harassing me as I did in old version. However awesome Shadow is, the barb nerf is to me a bit of a disappointment, I liked the . .. .. .. .-hard struggles for survival inte the starts.

 

[Sarisin]

My point is that the Lizzies and Skellies seem to be coming from remote dwellings and the spawn rate for uncharted areas is probably now set very low. Otherwise there would be more Orcs and Goblins. So it's not the lazy town squatting Barbarians that is the problem, but their infertile cousins in the boondocks.

I use a map program that places a good assortment of animals on the map at the start, so I get as many Lions as Bears. (Both populations, I think, coming from Dens built by those spawned in the first few turns.)

OK, I see what you are saying. I suppose it all has to do with limits set on the number of barb units that can appear on the map at any time. If you kill some, more will spawn. However, if everyone turtles up and the barbs squat, you have no movement or spawning.

I do see a few Elephants and the rare Lion in mid-game, but no Gorillas, Tigers, Spiders or even Wolves. In the exploration phase, you have all of these, but likely (especially in slower speed games) don't have Animal Husbandry and cannot capture them. Also, it is iffy whether or not your Scout is powerful enough to take down some of them.

 

[Sarisin]

Maybe we should give the barb leader the scorched earth trait?
That would solve those:
"Im the mighty Orthus and now that I conquered your puny city I will...ähmmm... take a soft cushion seat and smoke weat till somebody comes and burns my new comfortable home"
"Im one of the 4 riders and that I conquered your puny city I will plant a tree in the backyard of my garden, plant some flowers in front of the main door and buy a "my home is my castle" doormat."

Yes, this was one of my suggestions - the other being to slow down the spawning rate of barb cities.

I really think it would be more consistent with perceived barb behavior (haha) if they razed cities rather than capturing them. They get enough cities with the spawning, and if you select Barbarian Lands their 'empire' will be larger than any civ. Not that that is bad, but if you really want RAGING barbs, I think more of an emphasis should be on prowling the map and attacking rather than squatting!

 

[Sarisin]

Maybe it's just me but in three Shadow games I have seen nowhere close the same same amounts of barbarians hordes harassing me as I did in old version. However awesome Shadow is, the barb nerf is to me a bit of a disappointment, I liked the . .. .. .. .-hard struggles for survival inte the starts.

I absolutely agree with your comment skallben!

Maybe the delayed appearance of the barbs was done to give the chance to the players, especially the ai, to prepare defenses and have stronger units to defend. It has worked for the human player, but not the AI. They still expand like crazy with one or two Warriors left to defend their cities. The result is numerous AI civs being wiped out when the barbs finally show up. I think it is a delicate balance. If you make the barbs stronger, the human player get challenged. However, the AI doesn't seem capable of coping with the stronger barbs and gets wiped off the map.

I'm not saying the barbs squatting makes for a bad game...it is just different than previous versions of FFH2. The barbs just are not raging any more after their early game rushes. You really have just a Barbarian Civilization to deal with after they squat.

 

[Blakmane]

what kind of settings are you guys playing on? Something must be different because, I've never seen a single civ fall to barbarians at any stage.

I play normal speed/monarch games, on small to normal pangea type maps, with about 7 civs usually.

 

[skallben]

Normal/Epic, Emperor/Immortal on Large maps.

 

[Marksman77]

I believe it's really a question of number of civs / size of land ratio.
When I'm playing with number of civs >= the default number, usually barbs get destroyed pretty quickly, and additionally they are not many fogged-of-war areas outside cultural borders for them to spawn.
Try and take one or two civs out from the default number.

Another thing is the game speed. Lower speeds mean more barbs.

 

[onedreamer]

To illustrate how ridiculous it can become I was out razing and sanctifying the many barb cities near my border. I took down one named Kabalhag or something like that. Imagine my amazement when the next city I came to was named, you guessed it, Kabalhag. They must have had so many barb cities they ran out of names.

I don't think it is exactly like this. I rather believe the next you discovered was just founded, hence it took the first name available, which was Kabalhag since you just razed it. In few words, if you're America and found New York (2nd city) and I raze it, your next city will be again NY, if I'm not mistaken. Though, you aren't really having a lot of cities, are you ?