Stability Guide

[AbsintheRed]

Updated this guide too
The form is still unappealing, but at least it's up to date

 

[DC123456789]

If we want to go in that direction, we can just simply add them the tech for the State Religion civic too.
But do we really want that? I thought it's fun to keep their start kinda unique, with the need to research some techs before you can finally officially promote Catholicism as your state religion.
Which will surely spread to most of your cities by then, as you have contact with the Pope, and pretty big religion spread modifiers

Well, it just feels really ahistorical to not have the Franks be Catholic in 500 AD, or very soon after. Clovis converted in 496, which is traditionally considered when the Frankish state converted (although the influence of the church had probably been strong since they conquered Catholic Gaul in 486), and since then the Frankish realm was basically defined by their zealous Catholic faith, from their wars against the Visigoths (it's no coincidence that they had support from the Catholic Gallo-Romans and Armoricans against the Arian Visigoths) to their many, many wars against the Saxons to the administration of the realm (which heavily depended on the church and used it as a unifying force, especially between the Germanic Franks and the Latin Gallo-Romans), to, of course, Charlemagne's coronation as emperor. It would be almost (well, not quite, but still) like not Byzantium not starting Orthodox or the Arabs not spawning Muslim.

Gameplay-wise, you basically have to become Catholic at some point anyway and it just helps with happiness/stability (which always has been a problem with the conquest-heavy first UHV) and eliminates that turn of anarchy. Ultimately, it doesn't make much of a difference there.

 

[The Southerner]

Well, it just feels really ahistorical to not have the Franks be Catholic in 500 AD, or very soon after. Clovis converted in 496, which is traditionally considered when the Frankish state converted (although the influence of the church had probably been strong since they conquered Catholic Gaul in 486), and since then the Frankish realm was basically defined by their zealous Catholic faith, from their wars against the Visigoths (it's no coincidence that they had support from the Catholic Gallo-Romans and Armoricans against the Arian Visigoths) to their many, many wars against the Saxons to the administration of the realm (which heavily depended on the church and used it as a unifying force, especially between the Germanic Franks and the Latin Gallo-Romans), to, of course, Charlemagne's coronation as emperor. It would be almost (well, not quite, but still) like not Byzantium not starting Orthodox or the Arabs not spawning Muslim.

Gameplay-wise, you basically have to become Catholic at some point anyway and it just helps with happiness/stability (which always has been a problem with the conquest-heavy first UHV) and eliminates that turn of anarchy. Ultimately, it doesn't make much of a difference there.

I agree totally.

 

[Swarbs]

Also agree on France - it doesn't really make their start that unique, as pretty much every city you capture has Catholicism. All it means is that you are forced to become Catholic at some point, before religious disunity wrecks your stability.

Having France start Catholic would also eliminate the slightly spammy tactic of founding Paris 1NE, building a pagan shrine and using the 4 culture you get to cover Picardy with culture before Calais spawns.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Alright, changed it, France now starts as Catholic
Already up with revision 1206

 

[AbsintheRed]

Jewish Quarter will now reduce the religious instability from Judaism in your city (but only if there is some instability present because of it)
This may give you the incentive to keep Judaism in some of your cities for the additional gold/commerce.

Also added that every further religion in your cities after the first one also add some religious instability.
This on one hand means that you should persecute even if you have a 2nd or 3rd foreign religion in your city, which is important for gameplay as far as I'm concerned.
Also it further increases the significance of the Jewish Quarter change.

I was thinking a lot to only add the extra penalty for the 2nd foreign religon, so the 3rd and 4th one won't add anything.
In the end I decided to add it for every further religion, as it's more convenient and natural this way, the main reason is still valid that you should want to persecute even if it's a third foreign religion, and also cities with 4-5 religions are very rare so it won't cause that much additional instability anyway.

In my testgame it turned out to be great, but I would like to get some feedback on this.
(will be up with my next commit, probably very soon)

 

[Pawlak]

Great modmod, congratulations to all involved in its developement!
I have two, quite basic questions, but I can't find answers to them anywhere. Since they are stability related, I guess it's good place to ask.
1. Does disbanding city taken over with culture counts as razing (stability penalty)?
2. Is stability bonus from imperialism event or state?

 

[AbsintheRed]

Great modmod, congratulations to all involved in its developement!
I have two, quite basic questions, but I can't find answers to them anywhere. Since they are stability related, I guess it's good place to ask.
1. Does disbanding city taken over with culture counts as razing (stability penalty)?
2. Is stability bonus from imperialism event or state?

Thanks, have fun playing with it

1. You mean when you choose to raze the city on cultural flips? AFAIK that uses the same onCityRazed event trigger as normal city razing.
Thus it results in entirely the same penalties, which isn't a bad thing probably.

2. It's state, so it's recalculated whenever something changes.
So the values are "temporary", and included in the expansion category.

 

[Pawlak]

AbsintheRed
- yes, it all make sens I guess, although it does make my Poland game more challangeing (with is a good thing in a way)
thx for quick responce

 

[Force44]

What is (gamewise) the difference, stabilitywise, between all the different kind of areas?

 

[Force44]

Let me elaborate my previous question.


As my game as france I can spot these sorts of areas/provinces.

Core area
Natural/historically stable area
Potentially stable area
Border/outer contested area
Foreign/unstable area


What happens to my stability if

I build a city in the area
I capture a city in the area
I own a city in the area
A vassal/neutral civ/hostile civ/the independents/barbarians builds a city in the area
A vassal/neutral civ/hostile civ/the independents/barbarians capture a city in the area
A vassal/neutral civ/hostile civ/the independents/barbarians own a city in the are
A vassal/neutral civ/hostile civ/the independents/barbarians own units in the area

?

I used to have a pretty good grasp of this back in the days, but after playing the new stabilitysystem in DoC for a while I am a tad bit unsure.

 

[AbsintheRed]

What is (gamewise) the difference, stabilitywise, between all the different kind of areas?

Let me elaborate my previous question.


As my game as france I can spot these sorts of areas/provinces.

Core area
Natural/historically stable area
Potentially stable area
Border/outer contested area
Foreign/unstable area


What happens to my stability if

I build a city in the area
I capture a city in the area
I own a city in the area
A vassal/neutral civ/hostile civ/the independents/barbarians builds a city in the area
A vassal/neutral civ/hostile civ/the independents/barbarians capture a city in the area
A vassal/neutral civ/hostile civ/the independents/barbarians own a city in the are
A vassal/neutral civ/hostile civ/the independents/barbarians own units in the area

?

I used to have a pretty good grasp of this back in the days, but after playing the new stabilitysystem in DoC for a while I am a tad bit unsure.

You get bonuses for founding your first few cities, and for founding or conquering in core and historic provinces.
Big penalty if another civ has a city in your core province, smaller penalty if in a historic one.
Potential provinces become historic when you first establish a presence there (this is important because of the penalties above, so you don't get any while the province is only potential)
Owning cities in contested provinces means -2 stability, in unstable -5.
Losing a city in your core or historic territory also results in some stability loss.

 

[Force44]

Thanks for refreshing my memory.

Does another civ includes allies, (obviously neutral civs and hostile civs are included) independents and barbarians?

So if you want to stay stable after conquering Dijon, don't make Burgundy your vassal yet but capture Lyon first because else you will get a penalty from sharing a historically stable area with an ally?

also

Do I understand correctly that it makes no difference for your stability if you found a city in your core or in a stable province ? (provided you will never lose the city)

Ad finally is it the case that unlike in RFC enemy units (in your core) are ignored for calculating stability?

 

[Swarbs]

Do I understand correctly that it makes no difference for your stability if you found a city in your core or in a stable province ? (provided you will never lose the city)

It depends - the details are in the OP:

Expansion (Permanent)
-Founding a city
--in a core or historic province: +1

Expansion (State)
-Stability penalty for number of cities (with k cities): -(k*k)/40
So 0 for less than 7 cities, -1 with 7 and 8 cities, -2 with 9 and 10 cities
-3 with 11 and 12 cities, -4 with 13 and 14 cities, -5 with 15 city
-1 for each city after the 15th, -2 for each city after the 31th

So you always get +1 permanent stability for founding a city in a core or historic province, but if that city is your 7th, 9th, 11th, 13 or any after the 15th you will also lose 1 from your state stability as a result.

 

[Force44]

Thank you for your reply Swarbs. I was a bit puzzled by your answer at first but now I understand my confusion.

You are stating that building a city in X does effect your stability.
Where X is either a core province or a border province.

Yes, my question can be in interpreted like that.

Though what I meant to ask is wheter the effect differs for your stability when X is a core province or X is a historic province when founding a city in X.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Actually I just changed it
It was +1 for both core and historic, and -2 for both contested and foreign provinces.
Now settling in core province means +1 stability, in historic/potential 0, in contested -1, in foreign -2

Does another civ includes allies, (obviously neutral civs and hostile civs are included) independents and barbarians?

So if you want to stay stable after conquering Dijon, don't make Burgundy your vassal yet but capture Lyon first because else you will get a penalty from sharing a historically stable area with an ally?

No difference in which civ holds your territory.
If it's not yours, there is a penalty. Some of your people/nobility thinks that those provinces belong to your glorious civ.
Alternatively those are the territories on which you have a proper cases belli

But a couple cities in your historic provinces is no reason to kill an ally. The penalty is not too big if it's only a historic province.
On the other hand, don't let anyone have cities in your core area.

 

[gilgames]

Burgundy is a kill on sight!! in any case. It doesn't matter you play France or Germany, they must go.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Burgundy is a kill on sight!! in any case. It doesn't matter you play France or Germany, they must go.

If anything, it should be France
At least yesterday was the anniversary of the shameful Treaty of Trianon
EDIT: (ehh, there are no fitting emoticons for indignation, bitterness and grief, so these will have to do it)

 

[Force44]

Question: How does religious intability work?

And how does free religion influence this instability?

 

[Swarbs]

Like the man said:

Cities
-For each city that
--has a foreign religion: -2 (0 for Poland, -1 for Ottomans)
--has a foreign religion with Paganism: -1 (0 for Poland)
--each foreign religion after the 1st one: -1 (0 for Poland)
--any number of foreign religions with Religious Tolerance: 0
--has a Jewish Quarter with religious penalties present in the city: +1