Stalker0's State of the Mod - 1/11/2022

[Thibix Magnus]

To make CV a bit harder, sure numbers can be tweaked, but I also feel the AI doesn't fight it as much as before in the WC or through war. I remember some patches ago having to manage very complex sessions where travel ban and sanctions or repealing my world religion were proposed at the same time, splitting my votes. In my recent CVs in immortal, including OCCs, I didn't feel the AI saw me as a threat as much as it should have. Of course, it depends how much we want the AI to play to win, and how much we want it to be immersive with lasting alliances. The AI work has been spectacular in this mod over the past years, and for me it's one of the biggest assets to work with when we want to balance victory conditions.

Besides tweaking the AI identification of threat urgency, sanctions could reduce the duration of concert tours.

As for ideological pressure, it might be a matter of numbers, but in vanilla game you often saw civilizations undergo a revolution and change ideology, I have yet to see that in VP. Could be a nice compensation to a harder CV. It would also make the late game more dynamic. More generally, about late game fun and unpredicability, I also remember games where different AIs managed to team up against a runaway and take it down, while now it's maybe easier to have stable coalitions?

 

[Closed Sky]

In my recent CVs in immortal, including OCCs, I didn't feel the AI saw me as a threat as much as it should have.

Yes, in my experience they seem to be unconcerned with runaways whether it is a player or other AI. I heard the devs are on a good track to tackle this partially by making AI remember your WC votes and holding you responsible next version.

Besides tweaking the AI identification of threat urgency, sanctions could reduce the duration of concert tours.

That's a very good idea to start with.

 

[Milae]

Tbh I turned down how much they wanted to sanction people because it was just constant sanctions every session.

If you are playing to win then yea you should always just try to sanction any competitor but it feels a bit silly when the entire world ends up sanctioned without doing anything wrong.

Now it will mostly only happen if you are a warmonger and they dislike you.

 

[Closed Sky]

But it does mean they will have bigger negative modifiers with you if you voted against them, which can amount to more DoWs, doesn't it? Or was it handled a different way and they will remember it only when casting their votes next sessions e.g. it wouldn't affect diplomacy outside of congress?

I noticed AI starts with unrealistic sanctions early for their main enemy, while the rest will vote no cause they wanna keep trades obviously.

 

[Rekk]

I think making cities able to be taken by land melee only instantly cures both OP melee warships promotions, without a need to change them, and these recaptures. It requires more finesse from players performing naval invasions which is good. You can cripple a city economically if it works many coastal tiles but not cheese it anymore.

This is an interesting idea, and of course it would require telling the AI that it needs to have an amphibious force if it wants to take the city. Is this really different from telling an AI that it needs to have an amphibious force if it wants to keep a city with enemy land units around?

That said, island cities don't really suffer from the recapture problem, and are perfectly suited to be captured and held by a purely naval force.

 

[CppMaster]

Hmm, this thread made me think, why capturing cities is limited to only melee units? I know, we are all used to this mechanic and it even may seem crazy that range units could that too, but what is the fundamental reason? I know it was like that in Civ5 Vanilla, but so was many things that were changed in VP.

 

[pineappledan]

I assume melee ships will still at least be able to attack cities?

I don't really see how this accomplishes much.

• Naval melee promotions that give bonuses vs cities are leaf promotions, rather than stem. Maybe there should be fewer anti-city promotions, or weaker ones, but they are already off both main lines, a much easier place to do tweaking.
• Disabling naval melee ships from attacking cities leaves them with not much else to do. It's the same problem as submarines.

 

[CppMaster]

Disabling naval melee ships from attacking cities leaves them with not much else to do. It's the same problem as submarines.

It'd be fine with submarines if it was the case, but they can attack cities.

 

[Rekk]

I assume melee ships will still at least be able to attack cities?

I don't really see how this accomplishes much.

• Naval melee promotions that give bonuses vs cities are leaf promotions, rather than stem. Maybe there should be fewer anti-city promotions, or weaker ones, but they are already off both main lines, a much easier place to do tweaking.
• Disabling naval melee ships from attacking cities leaves them with not much else to do. It's the same problem as submarines.

Assume that melee ships can attack cities.

Granted, the issue to be fixed is ... AI conquering a city with a melee ship only for it to be immediately retaken by the enemy because melee ships don't count as defending a city when attacked (by land melee?). So the issue is ... AI related, but the proposed solution affects game balance.

 

[pineappledan]

… how do they not count as defending? Like in an AI logic sense? They increase the city defensef

 

[Stalker0]

… how do they not count as defending? Like in an AI logic sense? They increase the city defensef

I don't think they take a portion of the damage like a land garrison does, so while yes they do contribute, its not to the same strength as a land garrison that siphons damage and can heal side by side with the city.

 

[Rekk]

If you attack a city that has a naval garrison using a land melee unit, you will immediately capture it; assuming that melee unit could capture the city without the naval garrison.

Maybe due to Stalker0's notes above. Might also be an effect of naval garrisons not being able to attack anything at all.

Because of this, you can raze a coastal AI city by attacking it with a MoveAfterAttack unit (eg Knight), and then leave the city, leaving it to be captured by a naval unit. At which point you can recapture the city with the same Knight, killing the naval garrison and the population and retreat again. The AI will happily take the city back for you to repeat the cycle.

 

[wabab]

… how do they not count as defending? Like in an AI logic sense? They increase the city defensef

Don't ranged units get a domain bonus vs. naval units (or naval units get a domain penalty)? I think land units can stroll on into a city with low health and low defense (especially once all defensive buildings are gone) and instantly destroy the naval melee unit upon city capture anyway. Naval garrisons have never been an issue for me when taking coastal cities with land forces, just means i get to delete an AI unit as a bonus. Or lose a high level unit if the AI does the same.

 

[Milae]

If you attack a city that has a naval garrison using a land melee unit, you will immediately capture it; assuming that melee unit could capture the city without the naval garrison.

Maybe due to Stalker0's notes above. Might also be an effect of naval garrisons not being able to attack anything at all.

Because of this, you can raze a coastal AI city by attacking it with a MoveAfterAttack unit (eg Knight), and then leave the city, leaving it to be captured by a naval unit. At which point you can recapture the city with the same Knight, killing the naval garrison and the population and retreat again. The AI will happily take the city back for you to repeat the cycle.

I never noticed this, but it sounds like a bug tbh

 

[Closed Sky]

I’ve never mentioned naval melee not being able to attack cities, I specifically said they would keep they promotions against cities. They need to retain them, otherwise naval warfare in competitive games would be nearly impossible.

Melee naval would still be able to attack cities to devastating effects like now, but no longer capture it which is fair.
The issue is cities being traded back and forth with an AI that only accomplishes prolonging wars and destroying such a city. Rekk describes how it looks now.

It’s not a bug IMO. Note that what Rekk described with instant naval kill inside the city is only happening when the city is being recaptured, without defensive buildings present. It would normally happen to I guess, just the presence of the defensive buildings brings defends ceiling so high naval unit are as effective a garrison as lab unit for the first capture.

 

[Rekk]

Also, the naval unit can't act as a health sponge to pull damage away from the city. This is likely so you can't double up on defending a coastal city by putting both a naval unit and a land unit in the city and have the naval unit soak damage after the land unit dies.

 

[Closed Sky]

Also, the naval unit can't act as a health sponge to pull damage away from the city. This is likely so you can't double up on defending a coastal city by putting both a naval unit and a land unit in the city and have the naval unit soak damage after the land unit dies.

Yeah, that's good design. And having both a land and a naval unit as a garrison don't combine their defenses. You only get one, higher one or always land one, it's difficult to measure as you usually put knights when there's trireme present or similar. Note that ranged naval units can't attack from cities, not sure on melee. And another information: no more naval units from concsription starting next version finally!

 

[Rekk]

Yeah, that's good design. And having both a land and a naval unit as a garrison don't combine their defenses. You only get one, higher one or always land one, it's difficult to measure as you usually put knights when there's trireme present or similar. Note that ranged naval units can't attack from cities, not sure on melee. And another information: no more naval units from concsription starting next version finally!

You can't let naval units soak damage when they are alone:

Otherwise, if you have one of each unit in the city, eventually the land unit will die from city attack and the naval unit will remain alone, ready to soak damage as if the land unit was never there.

 

[Closed Sky]

But I dont know what you mean. I agree with what you are saying and I believe it is how it works currently.

 

[Closed Sky]

Most of what I see how garrison works now is intended by Gazebo and it works well.

Gazebo's explanation 1
Gazebo's explanation 2

And correction: cities always use land unit strength if present in the city alongside naval one.