Flamand
The Visible Elder!
I saw the ships still need to be organized. So once that is done, I'll send them...
Star Trek mod - The Next Generation!
- Thread starter Flamand
- Start date
Logitech
A Person.
fair enough 
Lamabreeder
Chieftain
- Joined
- May 11, 2004
- Messages
- 54
Finally I have internet access again. Moving and having trouble with the provider afterwards is no fun. Especially after finding out it was largely your own's fault.
In my opinion there are roughly two kinds of SciFi shows regarding space combat: Those which depict combat between carrier groups, and those which depict combat directly between battleships. StarWars is a prominent example for the former, StarTrek, however, for the latter. Using Shuttles as fighters is thus... unfitting. To a very extensive degree.
Second, regarding "game mechanics", "ease of play" or "usability". Outfitting carriers with fighters and then attacking with all these fighters during combat is tedious. It is much simpler to just build ships and then use them - with or without bombarding abilities on their own. It might make sense to have some specialized units set aside who have the ability to transport fighters - as in the regular game. But this makes only sense if this is a deviation, a variation from the standard method - again as in the regular game, where carriers are only one in a multitude of ship designs. Then you can employ carriers as means of a different strategy. The additional tediousness of building, outfitting and finally applying carriers and fighters is then offset by the fun of applying a different strategy. But if carriers are the only ship type available, then its just unecessary tediousness. As player you win nothing by undergoing the extra efforts, because it's the standard procedure and everyone does it, has to do it in order to maintain maximum efficiency. It's not about strategy anymore, about choice.
The idea to use shuttles as fighters is a neat and clever idea. But it feels a little as if it was icluded just because it was doable, not because the modpack would benefit from it. Sometimes less is more. This is one of those times.
I have nothing against shuttles, just against the idea to use them as fighters. I could ask you, what do you have in favor of this idea?
---
I had another idea these days. I have not yet tested it myself (partly because I am lazy at the moment), but will share it with you anyway. I had the impression that the AI lay to much weight on ground units and built by far too much of them and by far too few space ships. You might or might not agree with this. If you do, I might have a solution. Just make every ground unit unbuildable.
Instead, use the trick you already use with the Colonists. Let's have a Small Wonder that builds a ground unit every couple of turns. Enough to protect all new founded colonies and make some ground attacks. If you want to maintain the current upgrade chain of ground units, make several of those Small Wonders, one for every upgrade level; let the older ones become obsolete once the current one can be built. This should encourage the AI to build more ships, because, you know, they really don't have much choices anymore. You can complement this with a fair sized stack of ground units (perhaps with no upkeep cost, and perhaps some very good ones among them) that is pre-given to all civilizations. Not too big, of course, because it would reintroduce the exact problem that this idea should remove.
---
One last thing. I realize that my last input (the unit tweaking) was not exactly met with the greatest possible enthusiasm. I really can't and won't blame you - given that it was quite a chunk of data that I slung at you there. Since I am still interested in participating in improving this mod in some small way, I would be interested to know what chunk sizes or shapes would be more appropriate for you to actually consider.
I have the impression, however, that most efforts are currently being undertaken with regards to graphics and map. This seems to be a completely different department than the one I was adressing, and so I simply might have made my proposals within the wrong creativity cycle... ...?
First, regarding story or "reality". Shuttles are depicted in StarTrek as small personnel transports with very limited combat abilities. On rare instances they are shown to be actually involved in combat, for instances in DS9 when they are used by the Maqis, but it is already clear from the context, that these are desperate measures, not normal space combat tactics.
In my opinion there are roughly two kinds of SciFi shows regarding space combat: Those which depict combat between carrier groups, and those which depict combat directly between battleships. StarWars is a prominent example for the former, StarTrek, however, for the latter. Using Shuttles as fighters is thus... unfitting. To a very extensive degree.
Second, regarding "game mechanics", "ease of play" or "usability". Outfitting carriers with fighters and then attacking with all these fighters during combat is tedious. It is much simpler to just build ships and then use them - with or without bombarding abilities on their own. It might make sense to have some specialized units set aside who have the ability to transport fighters - as in the regular game. But this makes only sense if this is a deviation, a variation from the standard method - again as in the regular game, where carriers are only one in a multitude of ship designs. Then you can employ carriers as means of a different strategy. The additional tediousness of building, outfitting and finally applying carriers and fighters is then offset by the fun of applying a different strategy. But if carriers are the only ship type available, then its just unecessary tediousness. As player you win nothing by undergoing the extra efforts, because it's the standard procedure and everyone does it, has to do it in order to maintain maximum efficiency. It's not about strategy anymore, about choice.
The idea to use shuttles as fighters is a neat and clever idea. But it feels a little as if it was icluded just because it was doable, not because the modpack would benefit from it. Sometimes less is more. This is one of those times.
I have nothing against shuttles, just against the idea to use them as fighters. I could ask you, what do you have in favor of this idea?
---
I had another idea these days. I have not yet tested it myself (partly because I am lazy at the moment), but will share it with you anyway. I had the impression that the AI lay to much weight on ground units and built by far too much of them and by far too few space ships. You might or might not agree with this. If you do, I might have a solution. Just make every ground unit unbuildable.
Instead, use the trick you already use with the Colonists. Let's have a Small Wonder that builds a ground unit every couple of turns. Enough to protect all new founded colonies and make some ground attacks. If you want to maintain the current upgrade chain of ground units, make several of those Small Wonders, one for every upgrade level; let the older ones become obsolete once the current one can be built. This should encourage the AI to build more ships, because, you know, they really don't have much choices anymore. You can complement this with a fair sized stack of ground units (perhaps with no upkeep cost, and perhaps some very good ones among them) that is pre-given to all civilizations. Not too big, of course, because it would reintroduce the exact problem that this idea should remove.
---
One last thing. I realize that my last input (the unit tweaking) was not exactly met with the greatest possible enthusiasm. I really can't and won't blame you - given that it was quite a chunk of data that I slung at you there. Since I am still interested in participating in improving this mod in some small way, I would be interested to know what chunk sizes or shapes would be more appropriate for you to actually consider.
I have the impression, however, that most efforts are currently being undertaken with regards to graphics and map. This seems to be a completely different department than the one I was adressing, and so I simply might have made my proposals within the wrong creativity cycle... ...?
Logitech
A Person.
Lamabreeder: Good to hear you got your internet fixed! 
I see your point in the Maqis reference. But no one said this mod had to be completely based on trek, and not also focusing on gameplay. As far as I'm concerned with space units, the main stuff that you will be building and using in your fleet will, and always will be, the starships. I was thinking that shuttles would stick around in a less tactical use, like recon. Not a important, have to build them unit, which is what you are thinking I'm talking about. I prefer to keep them in, if not to see them in the mod. I intend to give all starships not in a transport role the bombard abillity.
Yes, it's true that most of my time on this mod is spent on gfx and map, but I'm also working on the rules a little. I've eliminated the extra, resource-requiring units, and I've made the primary civs capable of building colonists, while minors keep the wonder, but with the obsolete tech in the next era. I've also touched on the terrain stats, civs, and music (work on which has currently stalled because I can't figure out how to clear the 'genre' of the files...). Ambient sfx and interface sounds are done and working, and I've added a few units (reminder, flamand ), one of which is a nice 'Early transport' for all civs before warp drive.
At present, I am taking great care in the placement of star systems. I'm making a hybrid map based on approximate locations of real stars, while laying out the main systems of trek, and also estimating the locations of major ST Star Charts Atlas errors, like the location of Nimbus, the Ferengi, and the Acamar Gatherers. It's a lot to plot out! but I'm getting it done in big steps every weekend, so sooner or later, I'll be all done with the large map, and after that I'll be fixing the AI problems, like excess land units, in the best way(s) posible.
I see your point in the Maqis reference. But no one said this mod had to be completely based on trek, and not also focusing on gameplay. As far as I'm concerned with space units, the main stuff that you will be building and using in your fleet will, and always will be, the starships. I was thinking that shuttles would stick around in a less tactical use, like recon. Not a important, have to build them unit, which is what you are thinking I'm talking about. I prefer to keep them in, if not to see them in the mod. I intend to give all starships not in a transport role the bombard abillity.
Yes, it's true that most of my time on this mod is spent on gfx and map, but I'm also working on the rules a little. I've eliminated the extra, resource-requiring units, and I've made the primary civs capable of building colonists, while minors keep the wonder, but with the obsolete tech in the next era. I've also touched on the terrain stats, civs, and music (work on which has currently stalled because I can't figure out how to clear the 'genre' of the files...). Ambient sfx and interface sounds are done and working, and I've added a few units (reminder, flamand
), one of which is a nice 'Early transport' for all civs before warp drive.At present, I am taking great care in the placement of star systems. I'm making a hybrid map based on approximate locations of real stars, while laying out the main systems of trek, and also estimating the locations of major ST Star Charts Atlas errors, like the location of Nimbus, the Ferengi, and the Acamar Gatherers. It's a lot to plot out! but I'm getting it done in big steps every weekend, so sooner or later, I'll be all done with the large map, and after that I'll be fixing the AI problems, like excess land units, in the best way(s) posible.
Logitech
A Person.
Ok, gfx aside, I will now look through the units and try to test them and make changes that best balance the mod, begining with ground troops. The first thing I want to try is governor 'build often/build never' options. The've worked for me before, so I'll see if they work here. Next I'll try increasing the cost and/or decreasing the amount of shields generated by common terrain. If that still doesn't work or is dificult for the player of any civ, I'll try making small wonders.
BTW: would you guys like either bonus resources (romulan ale, of example) and a strategic resource (which is just text, eg 'sol') for each major civ's homeworld, or just one strategic resource that looks and is named for the bonus (like romulan ale)? I think the latter idea is better looking.
BTW: would you guys like either bonus resources (romulan ale, of example) and a strategic resource (which is just text, eg 'sol') for each major civ's homeworld, or just one strategic resource that looks and is named for the bonus (like romulan ale)? I think the latter idea is better looking.
Logitech
A Person.
Ok, don't everybody cheer at once, but I'm working on music and sound effects and they should be done soon. I also would like to know if you guys would like the Denobulans to stay in the XL map.?
Logitech
A Person.
ok. As for finale, just give it time...
Logitech
A Person.
I am pleased to report that dispite my lack of time working on civ and the Star Trek mod, I have finally got a huge chunk of the XL map done, and I have done some debuging/unit combat testing. I think I'm very close to fixing the unfair land combat problem. The exact results are:
at April, 2119 AD, the Vulcans and Andorians delcared war. P'jem was conquered by the andorians, but after a few turns, the Vulcan AI (mysteriously) filled a transport w/ four Minor Infantry and sent it to Andoria, where they fought and conquered the system!
Meanwhile, the Rigelians and the Suliban declared war. The Suliban lost 2 systems to the Rigelians.
Conclusion: the AI seems to be liking the new unit stats. I still want to balance the defence bonuses out a little, to make easy conquering less likely, and I want to check other eras, but so far it's looking good.
at April, 2119 AD, the Vulcans and Andorians delcared war. P'jem was conquered by the andorians, but after a few turns, the Vulcan AI (mysteriously) filled a transport w/ four Minor Infantry and sent it to Andoria, where they fought and conquered the system!
Meanwhile, the Rigelians and the Suliban declared war. The Suliban lost 2 systems to the Rigelians.
Conclusion: the AI seems to be liking the new unit stats. I still want to balance the defence bonuses out a little, to make easy conquering less likely, and I want to check other eras, but so far it's looking good.
You must be doing a great job of balancing. In all the games I've ever played the opposite occurs: wars are declared, but the overwhelming ground forces make conquest nearly impossible. In one game I had 16 Minor II ground units backed up by 20 Excelsior ships and I couldn't conquer a single system defending by a mix of I and IIs. I'm definitely looking forward to this update!
Logitech
A Person.
yeah, I started by taking a look at the unit costs vs their abilities, and found out that all the units could be more expensive for their stats. After I (deciently) increased unit costs, I changed the amount of tile yields for almost all common terrain. Then finally I checked with the Combat Calculator to find the best stats for each unit era-type.
I haven't tested player unit efficiency in war, but the AI is defintely building a few less troops, and that makes me happy.
EDIT: The AI also used naval bombard in the war between the Rigelians vs Suliban. I am now off to test again...
I haven't tested player unit efficiency in war, but the AI is defintely building a few less troops, and that makes me happy.
EDIT: The AI also used naval bombard in the war between the Rigelians vs Suliban. I am now off to test again...
Daniel Khan
Bail Baby Bail
Intriguing, but I'll save my excitement for when you get to, say, the Post-TNG era.
Logitech
A Person.
Spoiler :
Logitech
A Person.
Spoiler :
Logitech
A Person.
Spoiler :
General 666
Culturebringer
I like this mod ,despiting the fact that I`m not a Trekkie. 
The cool interface and the ambiente/menue sounds are top notch stuff.
Sadly I have to tell that my first games has been very confusing. Regicide mode has fooled me.
Permanently a Civ has been kicked out ,and the game has ended suddenly. So I`ve thought "what a crap". 
But after I have sorted the Regicide out ,my gameplay was funny. Means a upgrade would be welcome to me. Other than that ,fix the reported things and it should go where no mod has gone before ...
The cool interface and the ambiente/menue sounds are top notch stuff.
Sadly I have to tell that my first games has been very confusing. Regicide mode has fooled me.
Permanently a Civ has been kicked out ,and the game has ended suddenly. So I`ve thought "what a crap". But after I have sorted the Regicide out ,my gameplay was funny. Means a upgrade would be welcome to me. Other than that ,fix the reported things and it should go where no mod has gone before ...
Logitech
A Person.
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
Similar threads
