1. We have added the ability to collapse/expand forum categories and widgets on forum home.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. All Civ avatars are brought back and available for selection in the Avatar Gallery! There are 945 avatars total.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. To make the site more secure, we have installed SSL certificates and enabled HTTPS for both the main site and forums.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Civ6 is released! Order now! (Amazon US | Amazon UK | Amazon CA | Amazon DE | Amazon FR)
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Dismiss Notice
  6. Forum account upgrades are available for ad-free browsing.
    Dismiss Notice

Start build order question

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by NicTeos, Feb 18, 2018.

  1. NicTeos

    NicTeos Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    Hi,

    I always wonder, why the ai is at begin so good and loses at late classical. They got bigger cities and more cities and even have more religious GP and without stonehange I never can create a religion ...

    Also is there a mod, which increases for ai the distance between new cities? I have quite less overlap at my own cities and so I almost always raze enemy cities ...

    I plan for long term advantages.
     
  2. orasis

    orasis Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2006
    Messages:
    375
    It is because they only start with bonuses... over time, as you grow stronger, those bonuses have less impact. As for the mod I don't think so.
     
  3. NicTeos

    NicTeos Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    ok, nothing to worry then. And it's sad that there isn't a mod for it ... but I guess, there is somewhere a number for that
     
  4. NicTeos

    NicTeos Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    hm, on prince difficulty ( I could of course play it on harder difficulty, but I'm looking for fun ) the ai shouldn't get any bonus...
     
  5. Jarhead60

    Jarhead60 Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 11, 2015
    Messages:
    74
    Location:
    Jax Florida
    The AI gets no advantage on Prince. Below prince the human gets advantages. Above Prince the AI gets advantages.
     
  6. Athmos

    Athmos Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    236
    They start with additional settlers, warriors, builders, and a few inspirations and eurekas too. However, they also generate additional gold, faith, culture, science and production, during the entire game. They also get a combat and an XP bonus.

    Finally, the player gets less gold from barb camp the higher the level :
    https://civ6.gamepedia.com/Game_difficulty
     
  7. NicTeos

    NicTeos Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    so what are they doing, to be so much better than me, at begin ?... My build order is 2 scouts, 1 slinger ( for eureka of bowman ), 1 warri, 1 builder, and then it depends a little bit, if I have 50% faster melee and ranged units, I build some of them( 3,4 units more ).Or if need, a monument, a 2nd builder or when having 50%settler prod speed settlers.
    Few turns before the first better goverments types are coming I finish the goverment district. I take then the 50% fast settler speed and free worker when founding a city. And then many many many settlers. And as germany my goal is to tech Apprenticeship and then replacing the 50% settler speed for 20% discount on buying tiles. With Hansa and the 100% more district bonus for industrial neighbours I can outproduce any other player. Then there is also enough production left for wonders. Some times I go for Stonehange at begin.
     
  8. Athmos

    Athmos Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    236
    TLDR : you are waiting much too long to expand.


    You should probably build your first settler before waiting for the card. It's quite common for me to go unit -> settler if I have good tiles, or unit -> builder -> settler otherwise.
    reaching 6 pop for early empire inspiration often come earlier if you actually produce at least one settler without it.

    Stonehenge from the start is a huge investment, it's usually not worth it unless your whole game plan revolves around getting first pick on a religion. Even as China, it's hard to land it without sacrificing your growth. Wonders are always a huge trade off, early wonders even more so.


    For a better success, the first phase of the game should be focused on expansion expansion expansion. You might slot in a quick district (if it takes more than 6 turns,, probably best to skip it) for inspiration, or a few units to explore/defend as necessary, but really everything should serve your expansion and it should take priority every time it's possible. Try to produce your settlers at the same time to get maximum benefit from colonization, and your builders when you're running Ilkum (once you got the cards).


    Best recommendation I can give you : play a few starts to T50 and see how many cities you can get in that amount of time, trying to maximize it with as little consideration for anything else as you can. I know it's hard for many players, but at least as an exercise, try to play the game as if wonders didn't exist either.

    Also, plant your first cities for their immediate benefit, not for their third ring tile potential. Reasonable expectations are : fresh water, at least one 2f/2p tiles in first ring (any tiles with better f/p yields are to be considered great tiles), at least one luxury or bonus resource and at least another 2/21 tile in second ring.
    Resource are specially valuable if their improvement is needed to trigger early eurekas your other cities can't provide (if you have a jungle cap with silk and 2 bananas but no wheat/rice, a second city with one of these resources is more valuable as it help you to get the irrigation eureka).

    Early cities should be as autonomous as possible, meaning able to produce what they need from first ring tiles plus max 2 to 3 second ring tiles.

    There are of course many other skills required, even from a purely "builder" point of view, but training yourself in early expansion will probably be the most beneficial first focus. Just ignore the ancestor's hall benefit and don't hesitate to produce at least one settler before colonization's +50% is available.

    Basically early game goals should be : get as many cities as possible, first two after your capital should be strong from the start, get political philosophy as soon as possible.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
    whylom, i_imperator, Ornen and 2 others like this.
  9. vortical42

    vortical42 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2018
    Messages:
    2
    Early expansion is important, but it isn't a hard rule. Since each settler you complete takes 1 population away from the city where it is built, you also need to balance that. If you have really good tiles in your capitol, you can wait a bit longer to expand. If you are already working all the high value tiles (3 or more food/production or tiles that provide science/culture) then you want to expand ASAP.

    I would also recommend skipping the early military units unless you have a nearby city-state or enemy city that you plan to grab. It is best to spend your early production setting up a good foundation rather than on soldiers that are just going to sit around costing gold. As long as you don't let barb scouts report your location back to camp, you should have no problem defending your capital with the starting warrior and slinger or two. Explore the area around your capital and clear out any nearby camps. Once you start settling new cities you want to produce at least one ranged unit for each and mabey a second warrior if the barbs are giving you trouble or you meet a warmonger AI.
     
  10. liv

    liv Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,337
    One scout is probably enough. Use your warrior wisely and circle your first city to take out camps.
    Then it depends - only if you really are going to attack someone right away (or on higher levels if you have a close neighbour that dislike close neighbours) focus on military and then use them to actually take a city. If not you are wasting resources
    If you are not planning an immediate attack you can throw in a builder and a settler next (or a slinger before them to work on that eureka)
    Use any early money to buy stuff, either monument or trader or worker or settler depending on what you have and what you need
     
  11. Athmos

    Athmos Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    236
    Also, overlap is actually good in most situations. Cities rarely if ever make use of all of their tiles. Closer cities allow for easier defense and troop movement, but also builder sharing (having developed cities produce builder quickly for newer ones), district adjacency, wonder build conditions, tile micromanagement (giving that great 5 food sugar tile to the newer cities once the original one has reached the housing cap...). Grouping district in the same zone for several cities can have huge benefits, specially for Japan and Germany (2 Commercial hub adjacent to a resource-less hansa = four resources hansa). If you can get a "Hansa diamond", each hansa will have adjacency with 2 CH and another Hansa, bonus +5 for each Hansa.

    Early aggression is definitely a thing (often a necessity at higher difficulty levels) but as you say you are playing on Prince, I think the fundamentals are probably what you are missing. If you want to improve your game, it's often quicker and more beneficial to focus on one aspect at a time.

    There are of course many other aspects and skill, from warfare to district planing to policy swaps timing etc, civ6 hugely rewards planing, timing and general micromanagement, and no advice is ever absolute. But I remember (a looong time ago in Civ4 actually) when I first avoided overlap at all cost and was often too late/slow to expand and I think that's the most important skill to work on if you want to get better.
     
    orasis likes this.
  12. orasis

    orasis Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2006
    Messages:
    375
    Yes, but, again... over time, If you're playing well, those bonuses have less and less effect. If my base science is 200/t and the AI's is 100/t it's bonus becomes irrelevant. The only bonus that remains consistently strong throughout the game is production and to a lesser extent gold. The AI is pretty bad with spending gold properly. Bonuses do not mean much if the AI does not understand how to properly exploit it's advantages. Even production bonuses are useless if they do not upgrade their units and keep pikemen forever.
     
  13. NicTeos

    NicTeos Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    k, will try to expand earlier in next games.
    Many thanks for your advices!
     
    orasis likes this.
  14. orasis

    orasis Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2006
    Messages:
    375
    As the other player said you're waiting too long to expand and you want to manage your early citizens. Get them working the best food tiles to get your population growth snowballing. Also, you're wasting production on that extra scout. Early hammers are precious hammers. A scout is 30 hammers and is worthless in only a few turns, a slinger on the other hand is only 5 hammers more, can do what the scout does + upgrades to Archers without wasting city production or clogging up a few turns in the build queue.

    "I take then the 50% fast settler speed and free worker when founding a city. And then many many many settlers."

    You're crippling your empire right here. About this time is when you should be beefing up your military... by now you should have about 4-6 cities already on the map. The 50% should be used later to colonize tiles that were second choices.
     
  15. NicTeos

    NicTeos Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    I have now started another game, and I have 5 Cities ... 1 conquered, 2 stolen settlers, and another settler in the pipe ... the other AI player was just to near (about 12 hex) .. so I can't really stop building military, but instead of exploring the map I go for conquest. Anyway I build my first Settler when my capital hit size 4 instead of 6. And the founded city is really beautiful, 3 2f2p, 1 3f1p and one upgrade tile to 5f in first ring
     
    avl8, orasis and liv like this.
  16. Athmos

    Athmos Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    236
    Sounds great ! :-D
    1 conquest and 2 stolen settler, you really saved some cash/production there. How does that start feels to you, compared to what you're used to ?
     
  17. NicTeos

    NicTeos Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    I still like playing peaceful ... by force ^^.. a major difference is at (less) exploring the map and get contacts with city states ( I play enourmous ( yamp ) with 16 ai and 30 city states.) And build phases are little bit shifted. And now I have a huge and experienced army (conquered in sum 3 civs). I also play with other mods too, like slower tech mod, where I have increased the numbers further. So that normally I have build everything so far at early industrial, but this time I went to industrial age and the most cities have still enough buildings to do. Also I delayed districts at begin to conquer, and so I got less GP
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
  18. liv

    liv Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,337
    Are you keeping up with the AI?

    Mods and game speed (and other setting changes) can alter the strength or weakness ratio between the human player and the AI. Certain changes you make may favour you or favour the AI. Slow speed for instance will favour the human player and quick the AI player.
    So that is worth keeping in mind when you evaluate your own success compared to people who play standard.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
  19. NicTeos

    NicTeos Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2010
    Messages:
    190
    Gender:
    Male
    It's no problem to keep up with the AI. In the 2nd Age I build with germany everywhere Hansa and trade districts. And beginning with the 3rd Age I outproduce every other nation. So building every world wonder. Biggest Army, and when possible still expand.
    While I play on epic speed, I also have altered the numbers for civic/tech costs to be much higher depending on the age, and this should be an advantage for the ai ...
     
    liv likes this.
  20. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    6,634
    The AI primarily goes for large cities turning a lot to farmland a using card slots for amentities.
    Gilgamesh will always spam zig’s and some other civs will spam theatres, Campus, and now... commercial hubs. If these civs get big they can be a problem to overtake and so it’s important to assess, the earlier the better. The key thing is to get more citiesbthan the opposition with more districts than they have amd eventually you will outpace their science/culture
     

Share This Page

Ebates: Get Paid to Shop