Start game with 1 great person, which kind and what to do?

[SnipedSoul]

I would use a GE for the mids and then use the second one to get the The Great Lighthouse or Great Library, depending on the map. Two of the best wonders for free? Yes, please!

 

[Fippy]

Well it's also depending on the map, if there's stone close it would be veeery questionable not to settle your Engi & taking a quick start where you can easily build Pyras (especially with 3 hammers added for free, you will be in great position to build wonders).
Settled Engi also will add 6 beakers with Rep.
Pyras can be difficult to build cos of other needs early, but it's exactly where a settled one would be of great help.

 

[ztrapon]

Settled Engi also will add 6 beakers with Rep.
Pyras can be difficult to build cos of other needs early, but it's exactly where a settled one would be of great help.

This makes no sense whatsoever. Even if you are Industrious, and have Stone, you'd still need at least 30-40 turns for the GE hammers to be equivalent to Pyramids rushed.

That's not including the +3 science though, but in the turns not wasted on Pyramids, you can construct a Granary and Library, so it evens out anyway.

Settling the GE instead of rush-building is acceptable, I guess. But if you're gonna be building Pyramids anyway, it's a terrible decision, plain and simple.

 

[Fippy]

You are very wrong there, sorry
I was thinking about wording it differently, but nope..
you are totally forgetting that you are making much faster progress in other areas, are you not aware how good 3h tiles are (stone, marble ph) as city tile for your Cap and here you even would get 4 & 3 beakers?

 

[ztrapon]

You are very wrong there, sorry
I was thinking about wording it differently, but nope..
you are totally forgetting that you are making much faster progress in other areas, are you not aware how good 3h tiles are (stone, marble ph) as city tile for your Cap and here you even would get 4 & 3 beakers?

And you are completely overlooking the fact that Pyramids give you another Great Engineer within at most 50 turns, it seems. Explain to me what you would with those extra 150 hammers/science the first 50 turns, that would compensate for not having Pyramids, Representation and a GE settled (if you'd like) with 6 beakers instead of 3.

 

[InovA]

And what exactly are you going to do with a T10 Pyramids? (~10 turns for Masonry if you didn't need to tech food) Your argument is that the 500 is worth more than the settled GE (334 IND; 250 Stone; 167 IND + Stone). So 56 - 167 turns for the GE's hammers to equal the Pyramids rush (depending on bonuses or lack of). That's not accounting for the 6 turns faster your 1st worker comes out and the faster settlers, other workers. It also doesn't account for whip overflows/chops. After all is said and done, Pyramids could be built in 25 - 70 turns IF were ONLY applied by the GE. The city's 1-2 + 1-2 mines or a quarry or cows can easily get up to 10+ on their own. So let's say 13 after you've expanded to 3 cities and you have Stone connected (as non-IND). 20 Turns, if you don't whip/chop. So maybe 12 turns. I don't think the GE was only worth 12 turns of one city's production.

The several turns faster workers/settlers is the big point to notice from settled GE.

It would take 50 turns (25 for PHI) for your next GE to be born, so that's nice. Maybe it's worth it to rush Pyramids if you're PHI and don't need to tech food first so that on ~T35 you can settle the 2nd GE, but the rapid, rapid expansion still seems like the way to go.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Dont forget that by GE rushing, It's possible to have Mids on turn 10 for some civs. You can still fail Mids with a settled GE on deity. I've seen it go really really early.

I think this is all ancillary to the original point, though. OP was trying to overcome early game lagging when playing levels above his regular one to improve his play... Not trying to completely obliterate the AI for funsies. I think both rushing Mids and settled GE could be too powerful for this purpose. Well... settled GE could be right for playing 2 levels above. But IMO settled GM gives OP what he's looking for. Economic assistance to deal with higher maintenance costs and some extra food with versatility to apply to anything early game without going overboard .

@InovA, you're math is a little fuzzy. IND + stone is 2.5 hammers output per every 1 hammer input. That's 200 hammers input needed not 167. You're also not accounting for the opportunity cost of using forests (most likely pre-math on deity so that's more wasted hammers) and whip overflow for Mids when they could be applied to other things. You're devoting a lot of resources to beating high level AI to Mids even though you started with a GE. Additionally, by the time you've squeezed out the Mids, that second GE could've popped from having GE rushed Mids

However, in the context of our discussion, OP should go with settling but not because of reasons you mention but because it allows him to achieve his goal.

 

[civvver]

Yeah I mean I'll just worldbuilder in pyramids if I need it that bad

 

[Fippy]

Not saying that Pyra rush is inferior, it's probably map dependant.

But settling and building them an outright terrible decision, no sense whatsoever..why would you say that?
Both BIC & me are deity players, we know a little bit what we are talking about..and Inova i.e. sounds experienced too.
You are a little bit over your head here, Ztrapon.

 

[ztrapon]

And what exactly are you going to do with a T10 Pyramids?

Okay, this is the last post I'll do on this topic.

The question is not whether rushing Pyramids amounts to a better bonus than settling a Great Engineer overall. It does, unless your games average 50 turns or less. Because after turn 50, Pyramids give you a Great Engineer. Is this really that difficult to take into consideration when replying?

Pyramids at turn 1, and GE at turn 50.
or
GE at turn 1.

And again this is a generous approximation in your favor, because I'm ignoring Philosophical, extra GPP from Library, and the fact that GE yields are a flat bonus, and doesn't scale with game speed, unlike wonder rushing which becomes even more valuable at Epic or Marathon. On top of that GE birth points from Pyramids will tick the entirety of the game, but again I'm willing to overlook this just to get a reasonable motivation from you.

So instead of just repeating "dude imagine +3 hammers at start" -- tell me what added value from the GE you get within those first 50 turns, that would justify such a short-term decision? That is the relevant question to answer.

Both BIC & me are deity players, we know a little bit what we are talking about..and Inova i.e. sounds experienced too.
You are a little bit over your head here, Ztrapon.

Appeal to authority then, got it. Unfortunately I don't consider that an argument.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Not saying that Pyra rush is inferior, it's probably map dependant.

But settling and building them an outright terrible decision, no sense whatsoever..why would you say that?
Both BIC & me are deity players, we know a little bit what we are talking about..and Inova i.e. sounds experienced too.
You are a little bit over your head here, Ztrapon.

I'm not sure he was talking about rushing turn 10. The point is that deity AI can get Mids extremely early and player has to devote a lot of resources to get them even with settled GE. I also play deity and am surprised you are not taking the opportunity cost in mind. By the time you squeeze out Mids with all that opp cost, non deity playing @ztrapon might have his second GE, a bunch of forests for post math chopping, and some more settlers, workers, or axes for a rush from whip overflow. Just saying you arent considering all the variables.

Can't stress this enough, though. This is all completely off topic. OP wants help keeping up early game when jumping difficulties to improve his game. That's all.

 

[Lexicus]

So instead of just repeating "dude imagine +3 hammers at start" -- tell me what added value from the GE you get within those first 50 turns, that would justify such a short-term decision? That is the relevant question to answer.

Quicker worker, quicker food techs, means quicker settlers, quicker subsequent workers, faster snowball.

 

[Fippy]

Well this turned silly, look it's not me who called other's opinions or suggestions terrible decisions or senseless.
If somebody does that, especially if he has not shown much on these forums compared to those who did, then sure i will point out that some of us are more experienced players. He has 73 posts..

Opportunity costs..sure i considered that, my whole point was about turns saved and stuff like that.
Pointless drama, i like discussions but not trying to constantly make your opinions look better without much gameplay backup or stats.

 

[ztrapon]

Well this turned silly, look it's not me who called other's opinions or suggestions terrible decisions or senseless.
If somebody does that, especially if he has not shown much on these forums compared to those who did, then sure i will point out that some of us are more experienced players. He has 73 posts..

Opportunity costs..sure i considered that, my whole point was about turns saved and stuff like that.
Pointless drama, i like discussions but not trying to constantly make your opinions look better without much gameplay backup or stats.

If you get personally involved in talking about strategies in a strategy game, perhaps a discussion forum about a strategy game is not for you.

You are actually the one who is condescending by using things like post count, or reference to other players on this forum, to motivate your opinion. I'm stating my opinion, giving hundreds of words motivating why I believe so, and haven't once sunk to name-calling or patronizing -- and all I get from you are replies that not only fail to address what's being discussed (this is a discussion forum), but also includes bunch of remarks directed at me as a player.
That's fine, I really don't care, but let's pretend I'm the best Civilization player in the universe, with 100% Deity win ratio blindfolded, and I'm asking you the same question. What would you response be then?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Drama? Erm... sure thing. Any who, settling is clearly better and more versatile in many situations. But if you intend to build the Mids (which was the debate), it's just inefficient to settle and then fight for Mids if you have a GE at the start. Stone might change this, so map dependent but that applies to everything in this game. Outside having stone, if rushed, you can literally play the game as normal... only you have the Mids. And then 38-50 turns later you have another GE. And all your forests. And all your whip overflow used for other things. And maybe you chop the Hanging Gardens post math and get a third GE.

Im not sure what inspired the drama comment but perhaps it wasn't aimed at me.

 

[Fippy]

Oh really.."last post i make on this topic", and 10mins later he's back.
Authority link just cos i dare saying i am not a newbie who posts terrible decisions or senseless points.
Maybe you 2 should read all posts again, and then come back calmly and realize who started to get personal here.
You are acting like kids.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Sorry, friend. As I wrote, maybe you weren't referring to me. And I simply can't find where my posts are childish. I'm just presenting my case. We've also managed to completely derail the thread as I've mentioned a couple of times. I won't respond for another poster, so since your comments are mainly directed at @ztrapon, I'll step back. But for future reference, just because 2 posters agree on a point does not mean our approaches to the discussion should be lumped together.

 

[elitetroops]

Absolutely agree with Fippy. Settling a GE >>>> rushing mids in most cases. The most important part of the game is the first 100 turns. In the early game having the pyramids does very little for you. They won't get your early workers and settlers out any faster, nor give you the early techs any faster. If you choose to rush them, you give up a huge early game advantage, only to get something that helps much later in the game.

Getting a 2nd GE to settle 50 turns later is worth very little compared to having the GE settled from T0. It's not as simple as "I'll get the extra hammers and beakers a bit later and then we are even". With the strong boost from the start, you can easily have one more city, more tile improvements and larger cities overall by t50. Settling a GE at that time doesn't even out the difference in production and beakers. On the other hand, the empire that settled the GE on T0 can be so far ahead in production that it can spare hammers to build the mids at this later time and still remain ahead in other production. Or it can use these hammers for something even better, depending what is best on the particular map. If you choose to rush the mids, you commit to it blind, without any map knowledge.

 

[SnipedSoul]

Does anybody know how culture flipping works? Could you run your settler right next to an AI and immediately culture bomb your city to flip their capital? That would be fun, even if not the optimal way to play.

If you play on Deity, you might even be able to flip both of the AI cities.

 

[Lennier]

They changed the culture mechanics in BtS, so culture bombing won't lead to culture flips. But the culture from the close city could cripple the AI by stealing some good tiles from its capital.