Starting virtues beyond Prosperty?

[The_Reckoning]

Please, please tell me you are at least referring to multi-player. Both CiV and BE has passive AI which sits back and watches you win any victory of your choice, so being "elite" simply boils down to clicking on techs in a certain order. Throwing around the word "scrub" in such a scenario is hilarious, since more often it is reserved for competitive environments. You know, with competition.

It has nothing to do with being "elite". Deliberately making suboptimal choices in a game because it's more "fun" is being a scrub. I'm not saying it's not fun to do sometimes, but the fewer strategic options you have which are optimal, the more scrubby you have to be to extract fun from the game. And for some of us, playing scrubby is less fun.

 

[BSPollux]

We're not exploiting bugs here. We're just making all the decisions which help us win.

Yep, thats solving, not playing. If you stop focusing on victory and instead try to have fun you might... have fun.

 

[Matthew.]

Sorry, I just cannot take you seriously. It is like saying you go full out playing chess against your nephew when he just learned the rules of the game.

In actual strategy games, beating up on weaker opponents for fun is looked down upon. Calling someone a scrub, because they don't beat down the weak AI in tryhard mode, is ridiculous.

Like I said, multi-player or the word "scrub" has no relevance here.

 

[The_Reckoning]

Yep, thats solving, not playing. If you stop focusing on victory and instead try to have fun you might... have fun.

What you're describing as "solving", how is that different from "playing to win"?

How is that not still "playing"?

What you're describing as "trying to have fun", isn't playing to win the game, it's screwing around in a game for fun. Not everyone enjoys that all the time. Sometimes people want a challenge.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I don't know how you can't see how "scrub" is derogatory and insulting. Of course, in pen and paper I have names for people too, like "min/maxer," "power gamer," and "no longer invited."

 

[mnf]

Deliberately making suboptimal choices in a game because it's more "fun" is being a scrub.

So, like,

• playing a game where you may not chop any forests
• playing a game where you may not have international trade
• playing a game where you may not kill one single alien nor destroy any nests
• playing a game where you have to DOW on all AIs when you first meet them, and may not negotiate peace
• playing a game where you may not use any affinity unique units
• playing a game where you may not settle coastal cities
• playing a game where you aim to kill as many Krakens as possible
• playing a game where you may not found any cities after your capital
• ...

are scrubs?

 

[Ryika]

Yep, thats solving, not playing. If you stop focusing on victory and instead try to have fun you might... have fun.

It's funny how you try to tell people how to play, but you don't understand how your way of playing the game would probably bore the out of some people. Min-maxing and theorycrafting, seeing how slowly but sure the puzzle becomes more and more complete is the real fun for some people and <doing random stuff> is just a waste of time.

So yeah, everybody's different. The thing about BE is... I like doing random stuff. Like using only generators. But I still win the game on Apollo. I can get away with pretty much anything. And still absolutely trash the opposition. Well, or maybe lose at turn ~250+ without ever having fought a conflict

 

[BSPollux]

So, like,

• playing a game where you may not chop any forests
• playing a game where you may not have international trade
• playing a game where you may not kill one single alien nor destroy any nests
• playing a game where you have to DOW on all AIs when you first meet them, and may not negotiate peace
• playing a game where you may not use any affinity unique units
• playing a game where you may not settle coastal cities
• playing a game where you aim to kill as many Krakens as possible
• playing a game where you may not found any cities after your capital
• ...

are scrubs?

Even more than that! Not picking the lowest possible difficulty level would make you a scrub, because picking the lowest difficulty is the best choice to ensure victory.

 

[The_Reckoning]

Sorry, I just cannot take you seriously. It is like saying you go full out playing chess against your nephew when he just learned the rules of the game.

You're comparing a human child with real emotions to Firaxis' half-assed scripting they call AI. Are you serious?

In actual strategy games, beating up on weaker opponents for fun is looked down upon. Calling someone a scrub, because they don't beat down the weak AI in tryhard mode, is ridiculous.

Looked down upon by who? It seems like you're asserting your own opinion as objective fact. And then you're just labelling something ridiculous - great, we have your opinion, are you going to try and back it up with some form of cohesive argument?

Like I said, multi-player or the word "scrub" has no relevance here.

I like how you're just declaring my point to have no relevance. Why is it irrelevant? Why are you labelling the mentality of "playing to win" as something to do with multiplayer?

 

[cazaderonus]

Starting with artists + 5 first virtue of prosperity is my BE tradition. I also take the free pioneering in my start package.

You get +10 growth, 10% saved food after growing, 1 free worker, 1 free colonist, faster outpost growth.

Yes starting any other tree then is a bit painfull before you culture up your cities but it allows for a great fast start.

I build 2 explorers first, rush ecology and the anti alien wall, and then traderoutalooza !

 

[The_Reckoning]

Even more than that! Not picking the lowest possible difficulty level would make you a scrub, because picking the lowest difficulty is the best choice to ensure victory.

Wow, some high-level sarcasm going on here. Answer my questions, including this one: Do you consider it wrong for people to derive enjoyment from overcoming a challenge?

 

[kingsbury]

If you play as the slavs and get the +culture starting attribute you can make a beeline for the +2 science from academies virtue and get some good science numbers before turn 100 even without trade routes.

 

[BSPollux]

Wow, some high-level sarcasm going on here. Answer my questions, including this one: Do you consider it wrong for people to derive enjoyment from overcoming a challenge?

Nope.

 

[The_Reckoning]

Some people play to win, some people play for the sake of playing. Just because there are people who chose to gimp themselves by not taking advantage of the most advantageous aspects of a game, does not make them newbies, or as you say, "scrubs".

In fact, deliberately gimping oneself to make the game harder is often associated with skill; while always taking the least resistance path and always making use of the most advantageous advantages, is a trait often associated with newbies, or as you say, "scrubs".


Let's keep it civil. Keep the ad hominem attacks out of discussions.

And referring to your post above - I can see how I might have been unclear with the whole "scrub" label.

What you're talking about is imposing extra rules, and still playing to win within those rules. You're still min-maxing, just with additional constraints. So of course, that's not being a scrub, I agree it increases the challenge. However, the idea that you should just "go easy" on an AI opponent to make the game more "fun" - that's where I and I'm positive many others would take issue.

 

[The_Reckoning]

Nope.

Ok, so...

What you're describing as "solving", how is that different from "playing to win"?

How is that not still "playing"?

What you're describing as "trying to have fun", isn't playing to win the game, it's screwing around in a game for fun. Not everyone enjoys that all the time. Sometimes people want a challenge.

What's wrong with this?

 

[CraziFuzzy]

Considering nearly all negative aspects of the others can be overcome with energy, industry is not out of question. High energy production may not be as efficient as organic growth, but it is far more flexible.

 

[Leo Tang]

I recently started a game with industry opening. I must say it worked way better than I expected. Energy was inflowing so much (from station trade, +5 energy virtue and 1% interest on your treasury), you can buy trade route immediately after founding (which also +health in one industry virtue). Internal growth was really fast but I never dipped into negative health (Which I do if using prosperity opener). The only thing is that your initial growth will be slower but I rather time it better to get more virtues.

 

[BSPollux]

What's wrong with this?

Nothing's wrong with trying to win a game. Its just that if you analyze the game to find out the most streamlined way to beat it you shouldn't critize the game when you found that way. And, as I said twice, analyzing a game and then executing the orders to solve it as quickly as possible is not actualy playing. Its more like solving a mathematical puzzle. Sure it would be boring to solve the same mathematical puzzle twice. Thats not a fault of the puzzle.

 

[Browd]

Moderator Action: OK, folks. There are too many gratuitous uses of "troll" and "scrubs" in recent posts. As stated in the forum rules, "Indirect insults, such as posts which characterise an opinion, a person or a group of people negatively are also not tolerated." And remember that accusing others of trolling is, itself, trolling.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Matthew.]

You're comparing a human child with real emotions to Firaxis' half-assed scripting they call AI. Are you serious?

Emotions have nothing to do with it. Going tryhard against a non-challenge is silly.

It seems like you're asserting your own opinion as objective fact. And then you're just labelling something ridiculous - great, we have your opinion, are you going to try and back it up with some form of cohesive argument?

Oh my. You mean like a certain someone who suggests not beating up on worthless AI as brutally as possible is a scrub? Because that was certainly objective fact.

I must have missed the part where I implied my opinion was meant to be taken as fact. You shared your opinion. I shared mine. There is no argument to be had.

I like how you're just declaring my point to have no relevance. Why is it irrelevant? Why are you labelling the mentality of "playing to win" as something to do with multiplayer?

Because multi-player at least ensures the chance of competition. Honestly, in Civ 5 you can set your capital to food focus, automate your worker, shift-click a few techs, and press next turn a couple hundred times and win, all the way up to Immortal, guaranteed. There is no strategy, this isn't a strategy game. What these other players are talking about is getting enjoyment out of a game which is greatly lacking in what it pretends to be. We can agree to disagree about the enjoyment of beating up on completely passive and worthless AI, but it is rather out of place to go around calling players scrubs when they are trying to salvage something from the game.

But yes, continue to spam trade-routes while the AI watches. I'm sure you are a much better player because of it.