State of the Mod: 2019

[swapoer]

How would one get into civ 4 btw? Seems interesting. I haven’t tried it yet because square grid feels so foreign.

Civ 4 and Civ 5 has a lot of in common, so if you are familiar with Civ 5, you would be fine picking up Civ 4.
If you want to try FFH 2, I would suggest play the More Naval AI Modmod, which improves all aspects of AI of the original mod in a way much similar to VP.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/about-this-mod.484746/

 

[tu_79]

Well , the best Civ Mod is FFH II. Don't argue with me at this topic.
Fall from Heaven II has 631k downloads and the most popular mod of Civ V is EUI, which has 516k downloads.

FFH II has several total conversion modmods and many small modmods. So far, VP has only small modmods, which add new civs or improve UI.

For me, the best part of FFH II is how the game combine lore and gameplay so well. Reading the ingame wiki is like reading a novel. And playing the game is like creating a new history.
Civ V has fallen short in this part when Civ V discarded the civil and reformation system and replaced it with the culture policy which play like a perk system of any rpg and makes no sense when you are role playing a civilization.

Hope we can prove them wrong with the last change to mechanics.

About what glider1 said about elitism, we can't fool ourselves and think we would enjoy this game if it were as simple as civ v on the first release. Too many mechanics makes a too harsh learning curve, but too few makes the game feel empty. We must aim for the middle ground.
Also, when mechanics are very easy to understand, they lack flexibility and scaling, so there's a trade off here too.

 

[Moi Magnus]

VP is still my favourite mod of all time and all games.

I personally like changes, and I like big changes, and one of the reasons why I tend to oppose/be neutral to changes to main VP is because they slow down changes to modmods.

(Secondary reason is that I don't want the Devs of VP and modmods to feel forced to work more just for my own personal pleasure of discovering new features. Modding is a hobby, not a job)

I'm very glad G is trying to make happiness less of a black box and more something that can be understood.
I'm glad it is making VP more beginner friendly.
I'm sad it gives to modder "fixing work" to do.

 

[John.B.C]

I'm very glad G is trying to make happiness less of a black box and more something that can be understood.

I understood it perfectly as a beginner several years ago (2016-17) , from that point onwards my understanding has decreased (with the changes) until this point - with this new system in place - when I don't understand it at all. I hope I will, but currently I feel very much confused. I think one of the reasons is that I very much enjoyed the old ways, and am trying to care about a system that now requires very little if any attention at all (it seems).

Even though I might never be able to accept this change, I still consider VP as you do, to be "my favourite mod of all time and all games".

 

[crdvis16]

VP is still my favourite mod of all time and all games.

I personally like changes, and I like big changes, and one of the reasons why I tend to oppose/be neutral to changes to main VP is because they slow down changes to modmods.

(Secondary reason is that I don't want the Devs of VP and modmods to feel forced to work more just for my own personal pleasure of discovering new features. Modding is a hobby, not a job)

I'm very glad G is trying to make happiness less of a black box and more something that can be understood.
I'm glad it is making VP more beginner friendly.
I'm sad it gives to modder "fixing work" to do.

I think this describes me as well. Changes keep things fresh, new, and interesting. I think VP 'going gold' might lead to me finally putting civ down to be honest because I'll feel like there's nothing new to learn (unless I start getting into modmods I guess).

 

[Erik3003]

I'll break my veil of silence for once:
I can see where Engineer is coming from, the modmod incompatibilities by the updates bother me too. But overall I think the updates are worth it and significantly improve the game in the long term.
For me there is a bigger problem: the lack of general documentation. When I first found out about Vox Populi I had no idea what this mod did. This is probably the biggest hurdle for new players, because there is no page where all the mods features are listed or explained. Furthermore I still struggle to know which modmods are usable with the most recent version. A new versioning schema and more focused updates could maybe help clean up some confusion.

I hope Vox Populi reaches a stable, balanced and fun 1.0 release some time in the future, as a base for bigger and better modmods to build upon.
I also want to thank Gazebo and the various Modmod developers for all the talent and effort they put into this game, for others to enjoy.

 

[Txurce]

How would one get into civ 4 btw? Seems interesting. I haven’t tried it yet because square grid feels so foreign.

Are you aware of "stacks"?

 

[black213]

Are you aware of "stacks"?

I love civ4 more than 5, but I also hate it more

 

[swapoer]

I love civ4 more than 5, but I also hate it more

Exactly! The combat of Civ V became satisfied after getting used to it.

 

[vyyt]

Are you aware of "stacks"?

Moreover, IMO the stack implementation was by far the worst in the series (been playing since Civ1).

If I remember correctly, the artillery units also worked in some weird way - they were not really ranged and you had to hurl them on cities to decrease their strength or fortification or something like that, no?

I know Civ4 was (is) very popular, but I never got into it. I tried several times, but I always got bored quickly and went back to (heavily self-modded) Civ3. Civ4 was the only Civ game I did not enjoy.

The vanilla Civ5 AI was horrendous, but I still found Civ5 the best in the series. No grids, no stacks, proper ranged units, promotions (ok, these were in Civ4 too). Although I was getting tired of the AI silliness, so the replayability was diminishing.

And then we had Thal's VEM -> GEM Communitas which was a real gem even improving the AI to certain extent despite the core DLL not accessible to modders yet.

So you can imagine how enthusiastic I am about VP. It is nearly perfect, it has all I want from a Civ game! The only sad thing is that I will probably never enjoy any other Civ game.

 

[swapoer]

Moreover, IMO the stack implementation was by far the worst in the series (been playing since Civ1).

If I remember correctly, the artillery units also worked in some weird way - they were not really ranged and you had to hurl them on cities to decrease their strength or fortification or something like that, no?

I know Civ4 was (is) very popular, but I never got into it. I tried several times, but I always got bored quickly and went back to (heavily self-modded) Civ3. Civ4 was the only Civ game I did not enjoy.

The vanilla Civ5 AI was horrendous, but I still found Civ5 the best in the series. No grids, no stacks, proper ranged units, promotions (ok, these were in Civ4 too). Although I was getting tired of the AI silliness, so the replayability was diminishing.

And then we had Thal's VEM -> GEM Communitas which was a real gem even improving the AI to certain extent despite the core DLL not accessible to modders yet.

So you can imagine how enthusiastic I am about VP. It is nearly perfect, it has all I want from a Civ game! The only sad thing is that I will probably never enjoy any other Civ game.

Personally, I think the culture policy is the weakest point of Civ V. And I am thinking Civ VI's policy tech tree might be in the right track.
Hopefully, after several years of development, Civ VI would be playable.

 

[DonStill]

I miss culture flipping cities though.

 

[moofe]

I will also break my silence here. I've been playing VP since 2015 or so and have been following much of the conversations in the forums through that time as well. And Ive been playing civ since civ3.

VP is incredible.

I can't speak to the numbers of active debaters vs silent players (maybe G can since he sees download numbers). As a member of the silent players here's what I would say:

Alienation or inaccessibility probably is an issue but IMO it doesn't come from the frequency or amount of changes but from the nature of the changes themselves (and IMO certainly not from the modmods being occasionally outdated, tho that can be a bit aggravating but not at all game breaking ). In my experience alienation of casuals and silents comes from constantly seeking to perfect balance.

Much of the community push for change comes from a small group of players (those active on the forums) who seem to prioritise balance over anything that might be OP. IMO these players would prefer a game where every start is equally good, every policy is equally good, every belief is equally good etc etc etc. (Obvs with the caveat that all decisons is situational... terrain, neighbours, etc). One of the goals of these players is to eliminate anything that might be OP.

Over time that leads to eliminating fun. Especially outrageous OP combos that were super fun and a touch broken. (This is the part where I wish I had a better memory cuz I can hardly remember any of the specific changes that felt that losing fun... maybe nerfing Oracle, various founder beliefs, Poland, etc etc). I've always felt like if you want to play a game without taking advantage of the AI by picking OP things... just don't pick those things! Don't eliminate them for the rest of us who enjoy them! ( and if you dont want the AI taking advantage, go to a lower difficulty, or use it as a handicap).

So I'd say that those who care most about VP ( as expressed by their forum participation) have shaped the mod to be what they want: a deep, involved strategy game where, in a vacuum, all choices are equally advantageous. That is their right, they obviously care the most. But for me and some other players, the mod has lost some of its fun. It's lost those golden moments when BAM! some combo of 3 or 4 things slingshots you free of the grind.

I still play the game* but it's become less fun for me. I appreciate the constant churn of versions and hunt for a better mod, I just think the game experience is a certain kind of less fun. And I suspect a lot of silent players would prefer a mod where there is a little OP here and there. To me thats where the alienation, such as it may be, exists. Not everyone wants a perfectly balanced mod where hundreds of games can be played without having to worry that you or the AI could win b/c of unbalanced design. Some folks just want to have fun, play a couple times a month and smash a glorious game-breaking combo or two (while still enjoying elite tactical AI, proper diolomacy, etc etc etc, all in one mod!)

Edit: another way of putting it is that (winning/succeeding at) the game is now almost exclusively about attrition and accumulation to the exclusion of the kind of 'fun' I tried to describe. When all points are equal you have to just try and get as many points as possible as fast as possible. Still fun but missing those pops.

But to each his own. And again, props and daps to G and everyone who puts their time and love into this incredible project.

*for some reason over the last couple months, I can't play VP. Vanilla works fine, but anytime I go to play the mod and select it and go (from the mod menu), the game (and my pc) just hangs and I never get past the configuring mod files part, I never even get the loading civ arrow thingy. No other mods, just VP, playing through steam. Multiple installs of various VP versions. No idea wtf is going on... super frustrating.

 

[Moi Magnus]

*for some reason over the last couple months, I can't play VP. Vanilla works fine, but anytime I go to play the mod and select it and go (from the mod menu), the game (and my pc) just hangs and I never get past the configuring mod files part, I never even get the loading civ arrow thingy. No other mods, just VP, playing through steam. Multiple installs of various VP versions. No idea wtf is going on... super frustrating.

Have you tried modpacks? (see https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/dlc-modpack-and-43-civ-version-repository.609278/page-35)

 

[moofe]

Have you tried modpacks? (see https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/dlc-modpack-and-43-civ-version-repository.609278/page-35)

I've had trouble with it in the past but I will try again. Thanks!

 

[Enginseer]

I miss culture flipping cities though.

technically your cities can flip to its original owner or ideological flip to a different dominant civ.

 

[DonStill]

technically your cities can flip to its original owner or ideological flip to a different dominant civ.

Yeah, but that's pretty niche. I miss using my culture to push borders back and eventually just wiping over their city tile with my colors. Ideology is late game and owner/revolution/city-state flips are way too uncommon.

 

[Moi Magnus]

technically your cities can flip to its original owner or ideological flip to a different dominant civ.

Unfortunately, this feature is even more niche now that unhappiness is reasonnable.
I didn't like to be crushed by unhappines, but the game where I've seen the Mongols create more city states trough revolts than they ever conquered was pretty funny.

 

[John.B.C]

In my experience alienation of casuals and silents comes from constantly seeking to perfect balance.

Much of the community push for change comes from a small group of players (those active on the forums) who seem to prioritise balance over anything that might be OP. IMO these players would prefer a game where every start is equally good, every policy is equally good, every belief is equally good etc etc etc. (Obvs with the caveat that all decisons is situational... terrain, neighbours, etc). One of the goals of these players is to eliminate anything that might be OP.

Over time that leads to eliminating fun. Especially outrageous OP combos that were super fun and a touch broken. (This is the part where I wish I had a better memory cuz I can hardly remember any of the specific changes that felt that losing fun... maybe nerfing Oracle, various founder beliefs, Poland, etc etc). I've always felt like if you want to play a game without taking advantage of the AI by picking OP things... just don't pick those things! Don't eliminate them for the rest of us who enjoy them! ( and if you dont want the AI taking advantage, go to a lower difficulty, or use it as a handicap).

So I'd say that those who care most about VP ( as expressed by their forum participation) have shaped the mod to be what they want: a deep, involved strategy game where, in a vacuum, all choices are equally advantageous. That is their right, they obviously care the most. But for me and some other players, the mod has lost some of its fun. It's lost those golden moments when BAM! some combo of 3 or 4 things slingshots you free of the grind.

I still play the game* but it's become less fun for me. I appreciate the constant churn of versions and hunt for a better mod, I just think the game experience is a certain kind of less fun. And I suspect a lot of silent players would prefer a mod where there is a little OP here and there. To me thats where the alienation, such as it may be, exists. Not everyone wants a perfectly balanced mod where hundreds of games can be played without having to worry that you or the AI could win b/c of unbalanced design. Some folks just want to have fun, play a couple times a month and smash a glorious game-breaking combo or two (while still enjoying elite tactical AI, proper diolomacy, etc etc etc, all in one mod!)

Edit: another way of putting it is that (winning/succeeding at) the game is now almost exclusively about attrition and accumulation to the exclusion of the kind of 'fun' I tried to describe. When all points are equal you have to just try and get as many points as possible as fast as possible. Still fun but missing those pops.

I trend to agree "some what" with this, and this is my constant worry, that fun is sacrificed for the sake of balance no matter what. I think it's the right mind set though, to try to balance whatever can be balanced, but one has to be really careful not going to the extreme. An example of this is the current discussion of "Without A River" thread in the general balance forum. That would be to remove another intresting aspect of the game.

I mean if some people had their way we would all be playing the "doughnut" map (and that's not even a joke ). I'm all for change and balance, but not if the objective is to eliminate whatever small edge there might still be left to polish.

I'm a player that don't care about playing stratgical balanced games (in some aspects):​

I love the chase for Iron, coal, oil etc. Maybe plan an out right war due jealousy of my neighbour and all his juicy land. I love the landgrab chase after luxuries to be able to deal with internal struggles within my own empire and perhaps making some more money from trading (another aspect that feels more "dull"). I no longer have to bother about that and can just settle where ever there is food and production (and maybe a monopoly) - due to the new happiness system (it isn't tweaked and blanced yet, so I keep my fingers crossed that resources won't stay worthless).

I want to have a reason to expand and that reason alone can't be the dull objective "because I just want to grow tall & wide so I can beat the game". If every "roleplaying" aspect of the game is rooted out I will lose my interest.

In general though I'm very happy about where we are at, even though I for the first time in VP history reinstalled the old patch. I'll wait until some issues are sorted out before I'll give this new system another go.

 

[SLGray]

To the posters that posted about Firaxis. I really do not believe they do not look at the modding community. Remember they added customized maps and scenarios in Civ IV. Also I see some features from this project and JFDLC in CIv VI. In the recent expansion, power was introduced. It is similar to JFD's power.