State Property & Caste System

[OTAKUjbski]

I really can't see how Corporations are going to be better than the new SP/CS combo -- especially where Domination is concerned.

For all intents and purposes, Corporations seem to be a twist on "free specialists" for their resource-bearing cities: (btw, the top 4 can coexist -- hence the separation)

• Aluminum Co (Scientist) - +3 (max *1 resource) & makes Aluminum
• Cereal Mills (w/e u want) - +0.75 (max *3 resource)
• Civilized Jewelers, Inc (Merchant/Artist) - +1 , +4 (max *3 resource)
• Creative Constructions (Engineer/Artist) - +0.5 , +3 (max *5 resource)
  
  
• Sid's Sushi Co (w/e u want) - + 0.5 , +2 ) (max *4 resource)
• Mining, Inc (Engineer) - +1 (max *5 resource)
• Standard Ethanol (Scientist) - +2 (max *3 resource) & makes oil

I think the big question is going to be how the corporations consume resources. Let's say I have 3 Rice. Does Standard Ethanol give me just (one) +2 for the Rice I'm giving it, or does it give me +4 for the (two) excess Rice I have available for it?

If each excess resource goes into the calculation (therefore a virtually unlimited bonus), then I can see how corporations are going to be OP [now that we can trade for resources we already have].


However, even given this bonus, I wonder if:

• Will the corporation bonus(es) outweigh the maintenance costs SP saves us?
• Will the corporation bonus(es) outweigh the cost of spreading our corporation(s) -- both in for the Executive and also in at the time of spreading?

I have a feeling [like religions], the immense amount of time and effort put into founding and spreading them may ultimately find themselves only a part of the relatively peaceful late-game wins.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

I really can't see how Corporations are going to be better than the new SP/CS combo -- especially where Domination is concerned.

For all intents and purposes, Corporations seem to be a twist on "free specialists" for their resource-bearing cities: (btw, the top 4 can coexist -- hence the separation)

• Aluminum Co (Scientist) - +3 (max *1 resource) & makes Aluminum
• Cereal Mills (w/e u want) - +0.75 (max *3 resource)
• Civilized Jewelers, Inc (Merchant/Artist) - +1 , +4 (max *3 resource)
• Creative Constructions (Engineer/Artist) - +0.5 , +3 (max *5 resource)
  
  
• Sid's Sushi Co (w/e u want) - + 0.5 , +2 ) (max *4 resource)
• Mining, Inc (Engineer) - +1 (max *5 resource)
• Standard Ethanol (Scientist) - +2 (max *3 resource) & makes oil

I think the big question is going to be how the corporations consume resources. Let's say I have 3 Rice. Does Standard Ethanol give me just (one) +2 for the Rice I'm giving it, or does it give me +4 for the (two) excess Rice I have available for it?

If each excess resource goes into the calculation (therefore a virtually unlimited bonus), then I can see how corporations are going to be OP [now that we can trade for resources we already have].


However, even given this bonus, I wonder if:

• Will the corporation bonus(es) outweigh the maintenance costs SP saves us?
• Will the corporation bonus(es) outweigh the cost of spreading our corporation(s) -- both in for the Executive and also in at the time of spreading?

I have a feeling [like religions], the immense amount of time and effort put into founding and spreading them may ultimately find themselves only a part of the relatively peaceful late-game wins.

Good Post, some good points , although Corps still feel to me exactly like they did 2 days ago, we still have no real idea.

For conquest though, I don't think anything whatever can touch SP/CS production.

 

[mrt144]

The production bonuses aren't that great though. you're talking perhaps 1 to 2 extra units per 50-100 turns, per city.

I think the fact that you cant put a finite cap on the resources can outweighs the costs. also the fact that aggregate output from running synergistic civics with free market may outweigh the savings from SP/CS.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

The production bonuses aren't that great though. you're talking perhaps 1 to 2 extra units per 50-100 turns, per city.

I think the fact that you cant put a finite cap on the resources can outweighs the costs. also the fact that aggregate output from running synergistic civics with free market may outweigh the savings from SP/CS.

May outweight is the key phrase.

The production from one of those workshop beasts really isn't 1 or 2 extra units btw. Take my earlier example, 104 base....add in forge, say org religion, factory and power..that's + 100% = 208 on a building, if running Police State the same for troops.

 

[mrt144]

i may be too drunk to think this properly.

but you only need 4x to 8x in resources to match the same base production and all those multiplier bonuses sans State Property. the 10% bonus adds only 10 hammers per 100, in an era where units cost 250-300 isnt that big of a deal.

i think that the fact that SP/CS only adds in terms of production whereas corps add in many ways, plus production.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

i may be too drunk to think this properly.

but you only need 4x to 8x in resources to match the same base production and all those multiplier bonuses sans State Property. the 10% bonus adds only 10 hammers per 100, in an era where units cost 250-300 isnt that big of a deal.

i think that the fact that SP/CS only adds in terms of production whereas corps add in many ways, plus production.

Again (god Im sounding like my mum when I was a kid, but this whole bts out elsewhere is making me feel about 12 again), we'll have to wait and see ....

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

i may be too drunk to think this properly.

but you only need 4x to 8x in resources to match the same base production and all those multiplier bonuses sans State Property. the 10% bonus adds only 10 hammers per 100, in an era where units cost 250-300 isnt that big of a deal.

i think that the fact that SP/CS only adds in terms of production whereas corps add in many ways, plus production.

Leave it to a drunk to simplify what I was trying to say earlier

I agree with him here.

Additionally, corporations do not "consume" resources. Based on the screen shots that have been shared already, this resource "consumption" is just a statement of a requirement to a) have the corporation, and b) is what grants you the bonus. If you have 5x the required resource (and some corporations have multiple resources listed) then you get 5x the bonus. That should be huge.

Yes, we have to wait and see, but for now, I'm in the Capitalist money hammer camp.

 

[homan1983]

i think that the fact that SP/CS only adds in terms of production whereas corps add in many ways, plus production.

Is this sentence finished?
Reminds me of an episode of friends...

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

I really can't see how Corporations are going to be better than the new SP/CS combo -- especially where Domination is concerned.

For all intents and purposes, Corporations seem to be a twist on "free specialists" for their resource-bearing cities: (btw, the top 4 can coexist -- hence the separation)

• Aluminum Co (Scientist) - +3 (max *1 resource) & makes Aluminum
• Cereal Mills (w/e u want) - +0.75 (max *3 resource)
• Civilized Jewelers, Inc (Merchant/Artist) - +1 , +4 (max *3 resource)
• Creative Constructions (Engineer/Artist) - +0.5 , +3 (max *5 resource)
  
  
• Sid's Sushi Co (w/e u want) - + 0.5 , +2 ) (max *4 resource)
• Mining, Inc (Engineer) - +1 (max *5 resource)
• Standard Ethanol (Scientist) - +2 (max *3 resource) & makes oil

I think the big question is going to be how the corporations consume resources. Let's say I have 3 Rice. Does Standard Ethanol give me just (one) +2 for the Rice I'm giving it, or does it give me +4 for the (two) excess Rice I have available for it?

If each excess resource goes into the calculation (therefore a virtually unlimited bonus), then I can see how corporations are going to be OP [now that we can trade for resources we already have].


However, even given this bonus, I wonder if:

• Will the corporation bonus(es) outweigh the maintenance costs SP saves us?
• Will the corporation bonus(es) outweigh the cost of spreading our corporation(s) -- both in for the Executive and also in at the time of spreading?

I have a feeling [like religions], the immense amount of time and effort put into founding and spreading them may ultimately find themselves only a part of the relatively peaceful late-game wins.

What do you mean by "max resources"? I don't believe there is a cap on the multiplicative property of the bonuses from a corporate office in your city. (I hope I'm not wrong.)

Your last three statements are the crux of the issue. Are you resource rich or poor? Do you want to financially cripple your oponents? How hard is it to get 3-4 corporate Headquarters in your empire, spread them to a few key cities, switch to Mercantilism, then spread your corporate empire to other civs, thereby securing you much cash and crippling their economies with the maintenance fees?

 

[qwert]

I think with these changes they are triying to intruduce a new economy. Industry economy.
Until now all the civics where mostly for a CE or a SE, the only exception being SP. With these changes there could be three options:
- The SE. A economy based ond specialist. Their advantages are flexibility and the GP. Using Representation+caste system+mercantilism+pacifism
- The CE+Corps: An economy based mostly on money and research which is used to rush production. Using Universal Sufrage+Free speech+emancipation+free market (+religious freedom?)
- The industrial economy: Ideal for warmogers. Using production to produce research/wealth/culture.
Maybe: Police State + Bureaucracy/vasallage + Emancipation/Caste system/slavery + State property + Organized religion/Theocracy

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

I think with these changes they are triying to intruduce a new economy. Industry economy.
Until now all the civics where mostly for a CE or a SE, the only exception being SP. With these changes there could be three options:
- The SE. A economy based ond specialist. Their advantages are flexibility and the GP. Using Representation+caste system+mercantilism+pacifism
- The CE+Corps: An economy based mostly on money and research which is used to rush production. Using Universal Sufrage+Free speech+emancipation+free market (+religious freedom?)
- The industrial economy: Ideal for warmogers. Using production to produce research/wealth/culture.
Maybe: Police State + Bureaucracy/vasallage + Emancipation/Caste system/slavery + State property + Organized religion/Theocracy

I do believe that one of Firax's goals was to give the player more freedom and more ways to win the game, while also enhancing the AI's ability to play smarter without cheating

I agree with you on the three strategies now available. I'm not 100% on the civics, because I don't have the game yet, but what you propose would seem to be a good way to execute each strategy.

Think about it this way. How many times did you regen a map on turn one, because you looked at the WB screen and knew you were fekuckded? Now, with this new flexibility, you can play regardless of your circumstances, and just choose one of the three paths available, and still be able to meet the objectives for all victory conditions.

(Disclaimer: I am not as skilled as the people, who claim to be able to win even if they start on a desert island, and I lack the patience to slug it out from a horrid start position, but I believe that the jist of what I say above fits with the vast majority of players.)

 

[homan1983]

Yea exactly

 

[mrt144]

Is this sentence finished?
Reminds me of an episode of friends...

I was drunk. get over it

 

[OTAKUjbski]

What do you mean by "max resources"? I don't believe there is a cap on the multiplicative property of the bonuses from a corporate office in your city. (I hope I'm not wrong.)

It's a little ambiguous until we all get the game and see how resource consumption and bonus multiplication works, but I'm pretty sure after reading this thread that multiple instances of the same resource result in a cumulative bonus.

At first glance, I was led to believe each corporation had an intrinsic limit to the bonus it can yield based on the number of different resources it consumes.

For example, if I have Mining, Inc. in a city with 5 of each resource type (so 5x coal, 5x iron, 5x copper, 5x gold, 5x silver), I originally surmised the total bonus would only be +5 ... I was wrong.

If you have 5x the required resource (and some corporations have multiple resources listed) then you get 5x the bonus. That should be huge.

This statement is true, supported by this post in a another thread, and each instance of any of the 5 resources yields a bonus. So, the same scenario above actually results in a total bonus of +25 to ANY city in my national trade network with Mining, Inc.

Unlimited = OP Culture win

It is very likely corporations are going to be ridiculously OP (thank God they come late) -- especially on huge maps where resources abound.

Just to see what corporations would do in some of my previous games, I've copied the resource box from a few of my city screenshots and calculated what each corporation would do for them:

(Pay special attention to the +101 from the 2nd, high resource civ)​

Spoiler Medium resources: +3.5 food, +3 science, +3 gold, +4.5 hammers, +47 culture :

Aluminum Co.             - (1) +3   science
Civilized Jewelers, Inc. - (3) +3   gold     | +12 culture
Creative Constructions   - (9) +4.5 hammers  | +21 culture

Mining, Inc.             - (8) + 8 hammers

Cereal Mills             - (4) +3   food
Sid's Sushi Co.          - (7) +3.5 food     | +14 culture
Standard Ethanol         - (4) +8   science

Spoiler High resources: +6 food, +9 science, +5 gold, +9.5 hammers, +101 culture :

Aluminum Co.             - (3)  +9   science
Civilized Jewelers, Inc. - (5)  +5   gold    | +20 culture
Creative Constructions   - (19) +9.5 hammers | +57 culture

Mining, Inc.             - (20) +20 hammers

Cereal Mills             - (6)  +4.5 food
Sid's Sushi Co.          - (12) +6 food      | +24 culture
Standard Ethanol         - (4)  +8 science

Spoiler Low resources: +3 food, +9 science, +1 gold, +4 hammers, +40 culture :

Aluminum Co.             - (3) +9 science
Civilized Jewelers, Inc. - (1) +1 gold       |  +4 culture
Creative Constructions   - (8) +4 hammers    | +24 culture

Mining, Inc.             - (7) +7 hammers

Cereal Mills             - (7) +5.25 food
Sid's Sushi Co.          - (6) +3    food    | +12 culture
Standard Ethanol         - (7) +14   science

Those were all taken from Standard 7-civ maps. Even my low resource screenshot yields pretty good results using the "unlimited bonus" method.

Now imagine what that might look like if I was on a huge map ... or vassalizing everybody ... or trading away my useless resources and spending for even more of the resources I need.​

More food for thought: Aluminum Co. + Creative Constructions

• The Aluminum Co. turns coal into Aluminum.
• The Creative Constructions corporation turns Aluminum into 0.5 & +3

Does this mean if they are both in the city that every instance for the Aluminum Co. also means a synergistic instance for Creative Constructions?

If that's the case, then add another 1.5 and 9 to the high resource yield!​

Maybe

If you can amass the right resources and stack the "Fantastic Four" in the same city, or if you have a distant Tundra city with little land but access to your resource network, then I can see how a well-placed Corporate Office can really turn an otherwise poor location into a mini powerhouse.

I think we have a new cultural win strategy on our hands ... and possibly even a reason not to go CS/SP -- given the right resource combos.​

 

[Thyrwyn]

No one city can have offices of every corp. Each corp has at least one competitor with whom it may not co-exist (they are competitors if they consume any of the same resources). Sid's Sushi Co, Cereal Mills, and Standard Ethanol are all competitors (they all consume rice). Only one of the three may exist in any one city. If another corp tries to expand to that city, they have to pay extra gold to evict the previous one.

Also note that each corp office in a city increases the maintenance cost of that city (apparently based on the pop and the number of resources consumed).

 

[mrt144]

It's a little ambiguous until we all get the game and see how resource consumption and bonus multiplication works.

At first glance, I'm led to believe each corporation has an intrinsic limit to the bonus it can yield based on the number of different resources it consumes.

For example, if I have Mining, Inc. in a city with 5 of each resource type (so 5x coal, 5x iron, 5x copper, 5x gold, 5x silver), then the total bonus is +5 .



Conversely, if this statement is true, and each instance of any of the 5 resources yields a bonus, then the same scenario above would result in a total bonus of +25 to ANY city in my national trade network with Mining, Inc.

Unlimited = OP Culture win

If the second method is how corporations work, then corporations are going to be ridiculously OP -- especially on huge maps where resources abound.

Just to see what the "unlimited" bonus would do, I've copied the resource box of a few of my city screenshots and calculated what each corporation would do for them:

(Pay special attention to the +101 from the 2nd, high resource civ)​

Spoiler Medium resources: +3.5 food, +3 science, +3 gold, +4.5 hammers, +47 culture :

Aluminum Co.             - (1) +3   science
Civilized Jewelers, Inc. - (3) +3   gold     | +12 culture
Creative Constructions   - (9) +4.5 hammers  | +21 culture

Mining, Inc.             - (8) + 8 hammers

Cereal Mills             - (4) +3   food
Sid's Sushi Co.          - (7) +3.5 food     | +14 culture
Standard Ethanol         - (4) +8   science

Spoiler High resources: +6 food, +9 science, +5 gold, +9.5 hammers, +101 culture :

Aluminum Co.             - (3)  +9   science
Civilized Jewelers, Inc. - (5)  +5   gold    | +20 culture
Creative Constructions   - (19) +9.5 hammers | +57 culture

Mining, Inc.             - (20) +20 hammers

Cereal Mills             - (6)  +4.5 food
Sid's Sushi Co.          - (12) +6 food      | +24 culture
Standard Ethanol         - (4)  +8 science

Spoiler Low resources: +3 food, +9 science, +1 gold, +4 hammers, +40 culture :

Aluminum Co.             - (3) +9 science
Civilized Jewelers, Inc. - (1) +1 gold       |  +4 culture
Creative Constructions   - (8) +4 hammers    | +24 culture

Mining, Inc.             - (7) +7 hammers

Cereal Mills             - (7) +5.25 food
Sid's Sushi Co.          - (6) +3    food    | +12 culture
Standard Ethanol         - (7) +14   science

Those were all taken from Standard 7-civ maps. Even my low resource screenshot yields pretty good results using the "unlimited bonus" method.

Now imagine what that might look like if I was on a huge map ... or vassalizing everybody ... or trading away my useless resources and spending for even more of the resources I need.​

More food for thought: Aluminum Co. + Creative Constructions

• The Aluminum Co. turns coal into Aluminum.
• The Creative Constructions corporation turns Aluminum into 0.5 & +3

Does this mean if they are both in the city that every instance for the Aluminum Co. also means a synergistic instance for Creative Constructions?

If that's the case, then add another 1.5 and 9 to the high resource yield!​

Maybe

If corporations don't have a cap (and thus a virtually unlimited bonus yield), then I can see how they can very easily compete with SP/CS. However, I think this competition will only be made apparent when an aggressive corporate strategy is utilized.

Because Firaxis was kind enough to allow us the option to trade for resources we already have, kwarriorpoet is probably correct in his statement that multiple instances of the same resource will yield multiple bonuses.

If that's the case, then we have a new cultural win strategy on our hands ... and possibly even a reason not to go CS/SP.​

This is exactly what I've/we've been saying.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

No one city can have offices of every corp. Each corp has at least one competitor with whom it may not co-exist (they are competitors if they consume any of the same resources). Sid's Sushi Co, Cereal Mills, and Standard Ethanol are all competitors (they all consume rice). Only one of the three may exist in any one city. If another corp tries to expand to that city, they have to pay extra gold to evict the previous one.

Also note that each corp office in a city increases the maintenance cost of that city (apparently based on the pop and the number of resources consumed).

True, but Mining Co. is the only really big competitor. Take it out of the picture, and you have your choice of FOUR corporations in the same city!

Basically:

Choose one of these:

• Cereal Mills
• Sid's Sushi Co.
• Standard Ethanol

And then either:

• Mining Co.
  
  OR ALL THREE ...
  
  
• Aluminum Co.
• Civilized Jewelers, Inc.
• Creative Construction

Sid's Sushi Co., Aluminum Co., Civilized Jewelers, Inc. and Creative Construction are non-competing corporations and can thus all have corporate offices in the same city.

Also worth pointing out is that Aluminum Co. and Creative Construction appear to have a synergy in which the Aluminum Co. produces feeds the Creative Construction.

Finally worth noting is that Sid's Sushi Co., Civilized Jewelers, Inc. and Creative Construction all generate .

Thus, the four of these make up what I'll refer to as the "Fantastic Four" -- the perfect corporate combination for turning cities into cultural powerhouses.

 

[mrt144]

1 of 3 and 1 or 3. simple enough.

 

[Landstander]

OTAKU - Great analysis!
I like the idea of turning some bumf*ck tundra-ville into a decent city with the right combo of corporations (i'd imagine Cereal Mills and Mining Inc would be the best combo for eeking out decent growth/productive).
The fab four seem ideal for your normal cultural/scientific/wealth cities. And Mining Inc of course for production cities.
I'm interested to see how the Construction/Aluminum works out.

Too bad they couldnt squeeze in a couple more Corps - especially considering you can't have more than 4 in any city.

 

[Innawerkz]

For us huge map players, let's omit a huge groan and say "What on earth were they thinking, the whole damn unexplored world will be now Portuguese.

With the new oversea maintenance, I'm interested to see how many Colonies a Portuguese AI player would create before we discover them.

----
Back on topic, I think the full comparison won't be realized until all things are factored in:

• Will it be easy to build & establish execs? Do AI's tend to favour allowing your corporations in or do they typically run Mercantilism or State Property?
• Will the corporation discount of FM joined with raw purchasing power of US be sufficient to balance the pure production power of CS/SP? How much will a corporation generate by late game? Enough to outright buy some serious military/infrastructure every turn or two - essentially gaining the + bonus & a serious stockpile?
• Will you even want to send it to the AI if it is as powerful as it is being theorized? How many opponents will be available to 'exploit' with the appropriate conditions that won't benefit them too much?