Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Jaroth, Oct 5, 2010.
Not sure, Depends if I feel that i will not need the city state in the future.
I don't like to play like that. If I have to do due to difficult level, I'd down level instead of stealing the worker. That's kind of cheat to me.
why d u play a strategy game and not try to play optimal?
Thats the core of every strategy game to me.
I remember you saying on other thread that having both unis and wat's as Siam is bug or exploit(dont remember which word you used and it's irrelevant). Well now they have fixed that bug. Maybe other writer thinks stealing unprotected worker is bug at the moment. Devs havent taken into account that somebody will steal worker from AI on early. Dont know.
thats exactly the point u can steal worker since realase since 100 patches and 2 expensions.
So devs OBVIOUSLY think its part of the game.
It is working exactly as intended. The Devs have not only left it in the game, they "legitimized" it in BNW by letting you demand one. CS's are in the game for the sole purpose of giving you stuff
It is clearly not an exploit!
there are penalties, yes, it is easy to do.
The AI does the same thing, iether by DoW & Capture or by tribute demand, or by Barb camp capture. They will even pillage the tiles (As do I from time to time).
Take it if it is free! Demanded as tribute is by far the best way to get a worker. No DoW, no diplo hit, only an upset CS. Big deal.
again, not an exploit!
But i would not do this *every time*, only when it makes sense. Most games I dont steal more than one, or any at all. Its very situational.
Okay. Devs have also had lots of time to fix trade lux for lump sum and then pillage/repair your lux and make new trade and repeat. So it's neither exploit?
It should be very easy to add diplo penalty from doing this. They had diplo penalty from doing that already on civilization III but not anymore.
Edit. Is it also OK to bribe your enemy to war with whole world with gpt and lux. After you have bribed your enemy DOW him immediately. This way you dont have to actually pay anything to him.
May be it is, may be it's not. Luckily, you aren't restricted from imposing rules on yourself. I can think of more important stuff to fix: AI combat, diplomacy, build/research paths, etc.
Killing opponent why military units is a bug, an exploit or a feature ?
I'm just asking....
I rarely steal from CS, i prefer other civ worker if available.
Other thing to fix (maybe ?) :
Culture from Cultural CS is just too big right now, or the other bonus from CS are too low...
Lot of people don't wait for dev to make the game they "want", and just mod the sh**t out of Civ5.
IDK what you can do by modding on the AI combat or diplo subject, but some redo of science tree, adding Corporation, or even the fun "fort with border are funny change, that lead to interesting game.
Which (using gameplay mods), imo, is about the worse thing one can do to play civ but that becomes more of a personal thing I suppose.
I understand house rules, which can be arbitrary but at least they are within the confines of a standardized base game (e.g., GotM, comparing growth/rates, etc.).
Sometimes I forget one of the things that makes this game great is how differently some people play to myself. If you are successfully rolling all city states on Immortal or above I'd love to hear more.
oh wow, i had no idea you could directly demand a CS worker as tribute how convenient. i'll try this the next game that i have enough units to scare a CS.
To be honest, any city state you declare war on should have its resting point for influence lowered by 10 or so, and another 10 if you capture a worker from them.
That way it'd ruin the Consulates effect for you for the rest of the game with that city state, and it'd actually be a trade-off.
Of course, Consulates is almost an exploit in itself
As I've said before, there are consequences. You can't attack a city-state for the rest of the game, you may very well SERIOUSLY piss off some civs, many other civs will at least be wary of you, and you lose a lot of leverage if you need to prevent an AI from aggressively forward settling you. Just because the AIs didn't automatically denounce you and start taunting you every turn doesn't mean they totally ignored what you did.
Why is it terrible? Modding communities are a strong base in almost any game like this. I don't use mods myself but I think there are people who could do a much better job of balancing the current mess of a tech tree than Firaxis has done, for example.
this really does get you a worker in nearly the most optimal path possible. Its just a tribute demand. The only better way is by getting lucky with a barb camp, and finding a worker in there.
The only downside is that this option only becaomes available once the CS has a certain population (4 or 6? i forget) and you gotta intimidate them for it.
so, not a great option for turn 25
but then, you cant reliably steal one at turn 25 iether, as they are often protected or out of range.
i guess there's one more downside to deccing a CS for the worker: it seems to count toward the AI Warmonger counter. normally in a game, i find that i can start 1 major war (complete with taking/razing cities) with other AIs knowing about this and not get the Warmonger penalty. but in this game today, i was surprised that Askia changed from Neutral to Guarded and then in the modifiers i see "They believe you are a warmongering threat" and ONLY after a very very short war with the Maya that I had to do. i was like 'huh?' and then only many hours later it randomly dawned on me that i had decc'ed a CS like a few hundred years before the Maya war to steal a worker. it probably counted to Askia and Washington.
but it's totally stupid that a guy with a giant sword over his shoulder standing in front of a burning ravaged city to actually sit there and judge me over my simple theft of human labor.
What he said. And besides, things that are "exploity" are, in my opinion, things that wouldn't be a valid strategy against players. Like trading all their gold for gold/turn and then DoWing. No player would ever fall for that, or maybe they'd fall for it ONCE. But never again. And that's why they made it so you have to have DoF to do it, and there are diplomatic penalties for attacking a friend.
But, stealing an unprotected worker or a settler from another player? Totally valid strategy.
And stealing from a CS is perfectly valid. There is a diplomatic penalty. Last time I checked, the rate at which faction with CS goes down increases when you declare war on a CS more than once *ever* in the game. It may even go down after one time.
Plus, your faction with AIs goes down when you declare war. There are consequences.
I do however have an issue with the fact that this strategy is *more* successful on Deity. No player in MP would have a worker to steal by turn 10, but on Deity, the AI starts with one! Which means you can have a farm up by turn 15. So the strategy is more successful than it would be against a player. And I don't like that.
I really wish they'd change the way Deity works. I wouldn't even mind if they boosted the AI's gold/turn, culture/turn, techrate, growth, faith, everything. But get rid of the second settler and worker, because that messes with the game in weird ways. It makes early trade routes easier to get (and they're very valuable on Diety.. it isn't uncommon to have HALF your beakers coming in from trade routes early in the game)
But stealing a worker isn't an exploit. It's just the price you pay for leaving a civilian unprotected in a hostile world. Suck it up.
Also, I agree with the general sentiment that it shouldn't be *such a difference maker* to steal a worker from a CS that it dramatically affects your chances of winning on Deity. I don't love that, because it makes worker-stealing a key strategy, and I don't feel like that was really the way the game was intended to function. So, what's the remedy? I think it's easy:
CS's should spawn a military unit before the worker, and protect the worker when any foreign military unit is nearby. AIs should do the same. Heck, they sure have enough units on Deity to protect their workers!!
a bit off topic, but :
I play without mod almost all of my game, but i love to change the "flavor" sometime.
I like the scenario included in the game for that, they are MOD, "official" one. trying "game changing" Mods from the workshop is really funny, and some mod are great to test specific situation (IGE save you hundred of turn to test / debunk / try strategy or timing etc...)
About the "worker steal is a key strategy", I will not say that, it's a key strategy to finish faster yes, but you can play win without.
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