Stealing workers from City-States

[Buccaneer]

No, scenarios are not "mods", it just got lumped into it. Civ scenarios, going back to at least Civ2, have always been a distinct thing from the developer (Microprose) as well as user-community ones. They are well thought out and in many cases, just as in-depth as the regular game (on the scale of DLCs), usually with a complete makeover. Mods came about when people started dinking around with the files (graphics and otherwise) to see what they could come up with. Scenarios, at least the good ones, can use mods/modpacks but Civ scenarios have always been real, standalone games. CivFanatics and Apolyton have always made that distinction.

 

[justanotherturn]

@Buccaneer : it's just word. With the SDK you can make the included scenario, therefore technically they are mods. but whatever, if for clarity of speech you prefer call them by another name, it's not the point of my post, and not the point of the topic

 

[Cromagnus]

a bit off topic, but :


I play without mod almost all of my game, but i love to change the "flavor" sometime.
I like the scenario included in the game for that, they are MOD, "official" one. trying "game changing" Mods from the workshop is really funny, and some mod are great to test specific situation (IGE save you hundred of turn to test / debunk / try strategy or timing etc...)

About the "worker steal is a key strategy", I will not say that, it's a key strategy to finish faster yes, but you can play win without.

I think it really is a key strategy. As an experiment, I ran the same map twice to turn 80, one with a worker steal, one without.

The difference:
NC 1 turn earlier despite settling a second city first. (Vs building NC first...)
2 extra archers.
2 extra population in my capitol.
Second city location wasn't taken by AI before I could get there.
1 extra caravan.
*A RELIGION*

Um, you can't tell me that isn't HUGE. The difference was a defensible position, 2 good cities, and good tech growth, vs a start that was doomed to fail.

I had a stone/marble/grassland start so quarries was the obvious faith choice. Without the early worker I couldn't work the quarries until much later. Extra production, extra gold, and 4 faith/turn. Boom.

So, my point is, it's a shame that the worker steal makes such a big difference in the outcome of a game. The solution for this is for AIs (especially CS) to guard their workers. It's that simple. CS should spawn military unit first, then worker.

 

[Light Cleric]

I think it really is a key strategy. As an experiment, I ran the same map twice to turn 80, one with a worker steal, one without.

The difference:
NC 1 turn earlier despite settling a second city first. (Vs building NC first...)
2 extra archers.
2 extra population in my capitol.
Second city location wasn't taken by AI before I could get there.
1 extra caravan.
*A RELIGION*

Um, you can't tell me that isn't HUGE. The difference was a defensible position, 2 good cities, and good tech growth, vs a start that was doomed to fail.

I had a stone/marble/grassland start so quarries was the obvious faith choice. Without the early worker I couldn't work the quarries until much later. Extra production, extra gold, and 4 faith/turn. Boom.

So, my point is, it's a shame that the worker steal makes such a big difference in the outcome of a game. The solution for this is for AIs (especially CS) to guard their workers. It's that simple. CS should spawn military unit first, then worker.

While stealing a worker provides a nice boost, I really can't imagine it had that kind of a cascading effect by itself. Playing the same map twice does not guarantee the same result because of all the different variables that occur. You could have played it again without stealing a worker and things would still come out differently over the course of 80 turns. AIs make different choices etc.

I have played games where stealing a Worker from a CS is simply not viable for various reasons(I don't steal from major civs, it breaks their AI too badly) and while it is a pain it is not the end of the world, it just alters your build order.

 

[glory7]

I think it really is a key strategy. As an experiment, I ran the same map twice to turn 80, one with a worker steal, one without.

The difference:
NC 1 turn earlier despite settling a second city first. (Vs building NC first...)
2 extra archers.
2 extra population in my capitol.
Second city location wasn't taken by AI before I could get there.
1 extra caravan.
*A RELIGION*

Um, you can't tell me that isn't HUGE. The difference was a defensible position, 2 good cities, and good tech growth, vs a start that was doomed to fail.

I had a stone/marble/grassland start so quarries was the obvious faith choice. Without the early worker I couldn't work the quarries until much later. Extra production, extra gold, and 4 faith/turn. Boom.

So, my point is, it's a shame that the worker steal makes such a big difference in the outcome of a game. The solution for this is for AIs (especially CS) to guard their workers. It's that simple. CS should spawn military unit first, then worker.

that's interesting. It's not clear in your text, but is it the case that worker stealing version was the 2nd play? I tried this (comparing these two) before about 5-6 games and even if I tried not to use previous map knowledge it seems that it mattered a lot.

And even for the case when I first played no worker stealing restiction, in terms of key milestones and finish times, there were not that much difference. For example, I get education 3-5 turns late and win (SV) 5-8 turns late - and this is not that much difference compared to the starting position and your neighbors: ex) salt+wheat start with friendly neighbor VS jungle/tundra starts.

 

[Cromagnus]

that's interesting. It's not clear in your text, but is it the case that worker stealing version was the 2nd play? I tried this (comparing these two) before about 5-6 games and even if I tried not to use previous map knowledge it seems that it mattered a lot.

And even for the case when I first played no worker stealing restiction, in terms of key milestones and finish times, there were not that much difference. For example, I get education 3-5 turns late and win (SV) 5-8 turns late - and this is not that much difference compared to the starting position and your neighbors: ex) salt+wheat start with friendly neighbor VS jungle/tundra starts.

I stole first. But it may be that this is a special case. Quarries requires a worker to get faith, unlike gems/desert/tundra/etc, so getting that worker early matters a lot. (I chose it randomly fyi, I wasn't thinking about that when I tried it)

My starting spot was coastal river with 1 grasslands marble, 1 grasslands stone, 2 crab, and 1 sheep in the third tier, with about 3 plains and 2 forest.

I went Pottery, Mining, Masonry, and got it around turn 25 or so. My build order was scout/monument/shrine/granary. (Normally I would build worker, but granary 10-12 turns earlier equals an extra population)

By turn ~25 I had a farm, whereas normally I wouldn't have even had a worker out by then without sacrificing one of those first three builds, something I just can't bring myself to do. By turn ~30 I had a quarry, by turn ~35 I had two quarries.

Spain wanted friendship, and I didn't need the happiness yet, so I sold the marble.

After the granary I built a caravan, then 2 archers. The 2 extra population from the granary and the early farm allowed me to work 2 tiles roughly 10 turns early each and greatly sped up my settler build.

After the archers I built a settler, rush bought a worker, and built a library. The settler got the very choice 10g Cerro De Potosi, 3 spice & 3 citrus. Settled on a hill, no river, but still...

On turn 60, I got my marble back, rush bought my second library from the sale of Citrus plus caravan yield, and started the NC.

So, as you can see there was early everything. Early extra gold from the marble, extra pop & earlier caravan. Early population from the farm and earlier granary. Early hammers from the earlier stone and extra pop. Early tech from the extra pop and the caravan. Early faith from the marble and stone.

All of it at least ten, probably 20 turns earlier because I stole a worker.

Not to mention the +10g/turn immediate yield from the second city, which I didn't get on the attempt without the worker steal. (Too slow to get it out, the city was gone by the time I could build a settler)

Of course, settling that location pissed off Kamehameha to no end, but that city was on a hill, the wonder was between me and him, and the rest was jungle. Defending his attempt to take it would be easy.

A ten turn difference on Deity, when fighting over locations with the AI, is all the difference in the world. And I think in this case, by turn 80, it was more like a 20-25 turn difference, especially because of the early DoF I got from Spain.

So, maybe this is a fluke? I dunno. I feel like this is pretty much how games always go when I do or don't steal a worker...

 

[glory7]

I stole first. But it may be that this is a special case. Quarries requires a worker to get faith, unlike gems/desert/tundra/etc, so getting that worker early matters a lot. (I chose it randomly fyi, I wasn't thinking about that when I tried it)

My starting spot was coastal river with 1 grasslands marble, 1 grasslands stone, 2 crab, and 1 sheep in the third tier, with about 3 plains and 2 forest.

I went Pottery, Mining, Masonry, and got it around turn 25 or so. My build order was scout/monument/shrine/granary. (Normally I would build worker, but granary 10-12 turns earlier equals an extra population)

By turn ~25 I had a farm, whereas normally I wouldn't have even had a worker out by then without sacrificing one of those first three builds, something I just can't bring myself to do. By turn ~30 I had a quarry, by turn ~35 I had two quarries.

Spain wanted friendship, and I didn't need the happiness yet, so I sold the marble.

After the granary I built a caravan, then 2 archers. The 2 extra population from the granary and the early farm allowed me to work 2 tiles roughly 10 turns early each and greatly sped up my settler build.

After the archers I built a settler, rush bought a worker, and built a library. The settler got the very choice 10g Cerro De Potosi, 3 spice & 3 citrus. Settled on a hill, no river, but still...

On turn 60, I got my marble back, rush bought my second library from the sale of Citrus plus caravan yield, and started the NC.

So, as you can see there was early everything. Early extra gold from the marble, extra pop & earlier caravan. Early population from the farm and earlier granary. Early hammers from the earlier stone and extra pop. Early tech from the extra pop and the caravan. Early faith from the marble and stone.

All of it at least ten, probably 20 turns earlier because I stole a worker.

Not to mention the +10g/turn immediate yield from the second city, which I didn't get on the attempt without the worker steal. (Too slow to get it out, the city was gone by the time I could build a settler)

Of course, settling that location pissed off Kamehameha to no end, but that city was on a hill, the wonder was between me and him, and the rest was jungle. Defending his attempt to take it would be easy.

A ten turn difference on Deity, when fighting over locations with the AI, is all the difference in the world. And I think in this case, by turn 80, it was more like a 20-25 turn difference, especially because of the early DoF I got from Spain.

So, maybe this is a fluke? I dunno. I feel like this is pretty much how games always go when I do or don't steal a worker...

well, I think you simply overestimating the effect of it. 20-25 turn diff by t80? does that mean your t80 situation with 1 worker steal = t100~t105 situation without? it's far from that for sure.

Moreover, as you noted yourself, early DoF to get lump sum cash significantly speeds up everything, and no DoW to steal worker enhances DoF requests probability and make it happen earlier. Moreover, it could lead them to DoW you. Of course you would (or should) be able to defend it off, but you need to pump up units/walls and delay your development. And your caravans may get plundered/your trade route cancelled/you cannot get 'sci caravan' if you don't have another close neighbor. Your comparison simply ignores these effects.

If it gets down to "I think this, for this game things went like this, I believe that it has this effects, ..., so on", I am willing to discuss/test out it with Deity challenges. I admit that I am used to worker stealings and tend to get 2 or more from other civs/CS if I have the opportunity, but for several test games I have played before told me that I could achieve SV within 5-7 turns distance.

 

[Buccaneer]

I think part of it comes down to whether you build a worker third or a shrine. I sometimes get too enamored with a pantheon and delay the worker but I agree that an early worker is beneficial. Just how to get one? I guess I got turned off by declare-steal-peace with little or no consequences. That's no different than the former trade-declare exploit.

 

[Cromagnus]

well, I think you simply overestimating the effect of it. 20-25 turn diff by t80? does that mean your t80 situation with 1 worker steal = t100~t105 situation without? it's far from that for sure.

Moreover, as you noted yourself, early DoF to get lump sum cash significantly speeds up everything, and no DoW to steal worker enhances DoF requests probability and make it happen earlier. Moreover, it could lead them to DoW you. Of course you would (or should) be able to defend it off, but you need to pump up units/walls and delay your development. And your caravans may get plundered/your trade route cancelled/you cannot get 'sci caravan' if you don't have another close neighbor. Your comparison simply ignores these effects.

If it gets down to "I think this, for this game things went like this, I believe that it has this effects, ..., so on", I am willing to discuss/test out it with Deity challenges. I admit that I am used to worker stealings and tend to get 2 or more from other civs/CS if I have the opportunity, but for several test games I have played before told me that I could achieve SV within 5-7 turns distance.

You could be right. It may only be a 5-10 turn difference by the end of the game, but for some reason it just feels snowbally to me. I know that's not offering evidence though...

Yeah, what we need is a challenge, although I'm not sure how you accurately measure results. Sample size would be small and time to VC varies so much between players...

 

[Cromagnus]

I think the biggest advantage to the worker steal is that Deity is all about getting over that initial hump. Once you're competitive on tech or have a strong economy/production/military, it's no longer as much of a challenge. The fact that you can steal a worker as early as turn 10... I mean, that's like getting 310 gold on turn 10. So early in the game, that's kind of huge.

 

[glory7]

I think the biggest advantage to the worker steal is that Deity is all about getting over that initial hump. Once you're competitive on tech or have a strong economy/production/military, it's no longer as much of a challenge. The fact that you can steal a worker as early as turn 10... I mean, that's like getting 310 gold on turn 10. So early in the game, that's kind of huge.

While I did not agree with you about the actual amount of the effect in terms of turns, I do agree with you that this does snowball and makes a game easier and more comfortable. Personally, I would like to see a DC with previous HoF-like restriction that if you DoW somebody you have to take his cap before making a peace. It would eliminate all these worker stealing issues, but will favor less-warmongering plays.

And you did provide an evidence with your play example. no worries. I also had a game where I could steal 2 workers very early in the game from a neighbor (I could get them to my cap and started improving tiles around t15-20) and that game became a piece of cake.

 

[Moriarte]

It's not like you're in "danger" of losing a deity game because you don't steal a worker. Quite the opposite in fact. People tend to steal them, but this doesn't "break" the AI, who is broken in the first place and can't launch into space @ t.250 anymore, like it could back in gods and kings.

They produce artists and musicians now, so you can postpone your worker for as long as you like and still win.

The exact magnitude of worker steal can't be measured, LC explained it well above. You can get some workers from barb camps, demanding tribute, finding gold in ruins, etc, etc.

 

[Buccaneer]

It's not like you're in "danger" of losing a deity game because you don't steal a worker. Quite the opposite in fact. People tend to steal them, but this doesn't "break" the AI, who is broken in the first place and can't launch into space @ t.250 anymore, like it could back in gods and kings.

They produce artists and musicians now, so you can postpone your worker for as long as you like and still win.

The exact magnitude of worker steal can't be measured, LC explained it well above. You can get some workers from barb camps, demanding tribute, finding gold in ruins, etc, etc.

Which brings up a tangential question. What are the optimum winning times for the AI on deity/immortal that you and others have seen? I could've seen a Greece DV at 280 if I had not thwarted them. But this reminds me of one of my pre-release rants and that was purposely extending the game so we (and the AI) were forced into playing with the new features. At first, I thought the AI would still win quickly (250) and we would be winning before then, thus ignoring the new toys. But that was wrong, more passive AI led to more wins at higher levels. But I guess that's the difference between Deity and Immortal, the former has a hump to get over while the latter does not.

 

[crazymarco]

What is the best turn to steal a worker?

I stole one from a CS without other civ declaration of protection.I make peace immediately but then every civ thinks I am a warmongering, that's deal a great blow to my game afterwards.

 

[flying_dug0ng]

I try to steal early workers whenever there's a chance. It's slavery, plain and simple.

I'd say every single civ in history has done raids for ransom/easy labour.

 

[Tich]

Which brings up a tangential question. What are the optimum winning times for the AI on deity/immortal that you and others have seen? I could've seen a Greece DV at 280 if I had not thwarted them. But this reminds me of one of my pre-release rants and that was purposely extending the game so we (and the AI) were forced into playing with the new features. At first, I thought the AI would still win quickly (250) and we would be winning before then, thus ignoring the new toys. But that was wrong, more passive AI led to more wins at higher levels. But I guess that's the difference between Deity and Immortal, the former has a hump to get over while the latter does not.

The problem with your question is that it assumes that Deity players have actually lost games for reasons other than early DOWs. It's basically impossible to lose assuming that you work towards a VC yourself so I doubt that many of us have much experience seeing a turn 3XX loss screen. It's pretty sad really. I would be shocked if people like Glory, Moriarte, LC, etc. have actually lost a game UNLESS they sat there and hit "next turn" just to see how long it takes the AI to win. Maybe they have more patience than I do but I've never bothered testing that kind of thing myself. But yeah, like, I doubt that many Deity players can help you in that respect. I mean, has anyone ever lost a game because an AI managed to reach a VC that wasn't "you got DOW'd by 3 people on turn 70"?

 

[justanotherturn]

I mean, has anyone ever lost a game because an AI managed to reach a VC that wasn't "you got DOW'd by 3 people on turn 70"?

yeah, in G&K. a lot of early science win from IA or just some turn before me...

I lost one deity game in BnW getting ganged by AI early. (and was too greedy for my own good).
But I didnt play a lot of deity game since BnW (5 or 6 i'll say)

 

[Cromagnus]

I think my first attempt at BNW I lost to China, who somehow managed to launch before I could win a Diplomatic Victory. In retrospect, that seems laughable. But that was literally one of my first BNW games before I really had a feel for it. All my other losses are due to DoW.

I did lose to a turn 200 DoW recently, which was a shame. I was making good progress towards a science victory... I think I was at 550beakers and was building research labs when the DoW came in. It was my own fault. I slacked on military. I only had 4 gatling guns and 2 GWI, which just wasn't enough given my very vulnerable 4th city location.

 

[Light Cleric]

The problem with your question is that it assumes that Deity players have actually lost games for reasons other than early DOWs. It's basically impossible to lose assuming that you work towards a VC yourself so I doubt that many of us have much experience seeing a turn 3XX loss screen. It's pretty sad really. I would be shocked if people like Glory, Moriarte, LC, etc. have actually lost a game UNLESS they sat there and hit "next turn" just to see how long it takes the AI to win.

In BNW? I've lost a couple of times going for cultural victories when I had no effing idea what I was doing, but beyond that...not really,although like in my Poland LP I have had a few close calls with enemy SVs. AI is very docile now.

In post-patch G&K? Yeah I got smoked quite a bit, surprisingly a few times after the initial ~60 turns because the AI could be downright vicious sometimes.

Honestly the biggest struggle I have in BNW is adapting to the passive AI. It's so hard-wired in me to prepare for a DoW that I have trouble actually beelining NC and focusing on growth.

 

[Tabarnak]

Moreover, as you noted yourself, early DoF to get lump sum cash significantly speeds up everything, and no DoW to steal worker enhances DoF requests probability and make it happen earlier. Moreover, it could lead them to DoW you. Of course you would (or should) be able to defend it off, but you need to pump up units/walls and delay your development.

In other words, try to steal a worker from a warmonger neighbor before he attacks you. Think the opposite if it's a friendly one.