Stealth Destroyer makes terrible escort

[gunter]

I propose to summarize our pertient requests and talks, post them inside the official bug list,I aussume these fundamental corrections will be inserted inside the first patch,above all as you said , stealth destroyers must be the same of normal ones except stealth feature and some more hammers to build it.

It ain't possible that stealth DD are worst than normal ones..

 

[Thalassicus]

The code itself would be quite simple if/then. When a unit attempts to move onto a tile with a stealth unit: if there are non-stealth units of the civ in the same tile, combat is initiated with the best defender (stealth or otherwise), otherwise no combat occurs and the unit moves onto the tile with the stealth units.

It probably would be better for stealth units to initiate combat no matter what if you stumble across them, unlike submarines, since you would enter visible range. It'd be interesting to stumble across a single stealth destroyer that defends without you knowing how large the fleet actually is.

 

[kimango]

Noob question, I know, but why not use Battleships as escorts instead? Granted they don't have the AA capabilities, but then Lesson #1 of BTS has been to use a mixed stack instead of spamming two different units.

Battleships to do the real defending (and potentially take some Air hits that would otherwise have gotten the Carrier), Stealth Destroyers do the AA, Attack Subs provide the sub-defense, Carriers rock socks.

Let's say I have a stack with 2 cruisers, 4 stealth destroyers and 2 transports full of marines and a carrier. After the cruisers are dead, the destroyers have to take the hits for the transports and carriers, especially since non-stealth destroyers are replaced by them - the inability to sacrifice itself to save transports is a major minus point - especially if you consider it's very possible the stealth ship WILL WIN the combat!


That said, the stealth destroyer unit is supposed to represent a Zumwalt or DDG-21, not a sea shadow - that is a full fledged combat unit that is still worth sacrificing IRL if the life of a carrier is at stake.

 

[Thalassicus]

Yep, the Sea Shadow was entirely an experimental concept ship. DDG-21 and DD(X) were actually the name of the program for developing next-generation destroyers before the budget cuts in the 90's, not a class of ship. It developed into into the Littoral Combat Ship and Zumwalt-class programs. Of course, none of this is for certain as military defense budgeting, spending and planning is all rather under the table. I'm not sure if anyone outside the military even knows to this day if CG(X) was canceled outright or is still ongoing in some form. (It's not as easy to hide large scale ship construction as aircraft like the B2, though, so eventually they'd have to release information.)

I do agree that it's supposed to represent one of these -- and losing a few destroyers, even high tech ones would be a small price to pay in trade for the multi-billion cost of a supercarrier and associated aircraft.

 

[gunter]

BTW .. a bit OT anyway IMO bombers should have the possibility to inflict a 100% damage to ships and viceversa...

 

[Putchuco]

Exactly! ...

I would also agree, as I too had a nasty wake-up call, when my stealth destroyer just elegantly stepped aside and let the pirates destroy a construction ship.

In addition to that, I would say there should be NO option, if the attacker want's to attack the flagged/flagless fleet on that spot, they shouldn't even 'see' the existence of that stealth ship, BUT have to attack it as if it were part of the 'normal' stacking order.
Possibly, the stealth ship should even get a bonus on defense if it was undetected up to the attack. This will likely result into each and EVERY fleet having a stealth ship, and it might get to a point where it becomes a mute point, because every ship is escorted by a stealth ship.

Shouldn't we get a technology that allows for 'adding' stealth detection to any ship, which would add hammer cost to the building of that ship of course.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well, the ideal option is the popup,
When a stealth unit is
1. in a stack that moves into an enemy stack
OR
1. in a stack that an enemy stack moves onto

AND

2. would be the best unit in combat

the game aske would you like your Stealth Destroyer/Submarine/Attack Submarine, etc. to
Engage the Enemy in Combat
Evade combat

[of course the option isn't there if it is detected.]
SD can still see subs if I remember



Option 2, since SD would only be useful for AA and sub spotting, then that means they are only part of the stack necessary so Destroyers need to upgrade to Missile Cruisers OR Stealth Destroyers

so that the escort stack is

Destroyers->
Destroyers+Stealth Destroyers OR Missile Cruisers+Destroyers->
Missile Cruisers+Stealth Destroyers

I'd prefer the popup, but option 2 works as well

 

[Zhentar]

I think this is how it should work:
If there are non stealth units in the same square, and the stealth destroyer is the best defender, the stealth destroyer should automatically defend. It should get a surprise attack bonus, like 1 first strike. If the stealth destroyer survives, it should remain visible for the rest of that turn for all units.

When there are no non stealth ships on the square, it should be optional to defend or hide. As it stands now, my stealth destroyers will just be warped outside of my enemy's cultural boundry, making them the worst blockade ever. But sometimes I actually do want them to sneak around and pillage or bombard or something.

Actually, on second thought, I think stealth units should get 1 first strike period. As it is now, a stealth destroyer is no stronger against other ships than a normal destroyer. Surprise defense might add a second first strike, or make it 1-2 first strikes.

 

[vingrjoe]

Copy what I did below in the CivUnitInfos xml. Add any other ships to the list you want the stealth destroyer to defend against first. I've did this and every time my stack is attacked by a Missile Cruiser, Sub or Attack Sub, my Stealth Destroyer is the first to defend, whether I have a Battleship or Missile Cruiser in the same stack. You can make any ship into an escort (kind of like what DDGs, FFGs, and CGs do in a Carrier Battle Group). Of course, I had to take away the invisible ability for now.

<UnitClassDefenders>
<UnitClassDefender> <UnitClassDefenderType>UNITCLASS_MISSILE_CRUISER</UnitClassDefenderType>
<bUnitClassDefender>1</bUnitClassDefender>
</UnitClassDefender>
<UnitClassDefender> <UnitClassDefenderType>UNITCLASS_SUBMARINE</UnitClassDefenderType>
<bUnitClassDefender>1</bUnitClassDefender>
</UnitClassDefender>
<UnitClassDefender> <UnitClassDefenderType>UNITCLASS_ATTACK_SUBMARINE</UnitClassDefenderType>
<bUnitClassDefender>1</bUnitClassDefender>
</UnitClassDefender>
</UnitClassDefenders>
<UnitCombatDefenders/>