Steam - love or hate?

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Football Manger isn't Civ5. I think FM only uses Steam for the same things any non-Steam game that is also offered on Steam does, which are patching, achievements and not requiring the DVD to be in the DVD drive when playing.So really isn't any different than most non-steam games offered on Steam.

http://www.sega.com/fm10/manual/?q=books/13-installing-football-manager™-2010

Meanwhile Steamworks is heavily integrated into Civ5 for various features and multiplayer.

Civ4 used GameSpy for multiplayer. Did civ4 require GameSpy to be running on your machine to play single player? No. And I can't think of any features other than those listed that require steam (the "in-game chat and web browser" isn't even a part of civ5... 2K tried to take a feature of steam itself and pass it off as a part of civ5! And the mod browser uses GameSpy.).

And there are more reasons to not want steam other than not liking digital distribution (I actually like the idea of digital distribution and think it's the future, but I also acknowledge (unlike many steam supporters) that the Internet in the US is just not ready for it yet). What I don't like is that steam takes control of my own games away from me. For example, rather than installing a game wherever you want, it now has to go in the steamapps folder. This may sound like "who cares?", but it's a lot less convenient for modding. Forced auto-updating is another (I can understand for multiplayer games, but why should it be forced for single player?). Plus, with non-steam games you actually own them rather than rent them*.

*Yes, there's the EULA technicality, but really, who cares about the EULA? It's not like it's enforceable or anything.
 
Civ4 used GameSpy for multiplayer. Did civ4 require GameSpy to be running on your machine to play single player? No. And I can't think of any features other than those listed that require steam (the "in-game chat and web browser" isn't even a part of civ5... 2K tried to take a feature of steam itself and pass it off as a part of civ5! And the mod browser uses GameSpy.).
I don't know how Gamespy is implemented, but Steamworks, as has been repeatedly pointed out many times, is integrated right into the game it is used in.

EDIT: Not ALL Steam/Steamworks features are integrated, but some like the stuff for multiplayer, is.

that the Internet in the US is just not ready for it yet).
Yet it seems to be doing quite well in terms of popularity and sales.

For example, rather than installing a game wherever you want, it now has to go in the steamapps folder.
You can install them elsewhere but it would be nice for people with multiple hard drives/partitions to give the option during installation.

This may sound like "who cares?", but it's a lot less convenient for modding.
I don't see how that is any less convenient for modding. The developer now enabling mods to be installed in a separate folder from the main game would yes.

Forced auto-updating is another (I can understand for multiplayer games, but why should it be forced for single player?).
Yes, I'm well aware why it can be annoying for SP, we've been over this and I don't know why it keeps getting brought up again and again when I agree it needs better (working in Civ5's case) options.

Plus, with non-steam games you actually own them rather than rent them*.

*Yes, there's the EULA technicality, but really, who cares about the EULA? It's not like it's enforceable or anything.
Its not really any different, you can just get away with ignoring the EULA when its not attached to an account (Steam, MMORPGs, etc).
 
Forced auto-updating is another (I can understand for multiplayer games, but why should it be forced for single player?).

This I agree with, a nice feature would be a patch rollback (or some sort of choice when it comes to patch version choices).

*Yes, there's the EULA technicality, but really, who cares about the EULA? It's not like it's enforceable or anything.

So... guess why Steam is forced??? :lol: Nail -> head.
 
I gave you a viable alternative, send them letters, get other people to send them letters. It is hard to ignore it when the mailman drops off a few hundred letters, while it is comparatively easy to ignore forum posts.

It's much more fun to get you annoyed! :p - This is the last time I'm answering your posts - It's just so tedious and obviously all that can happen is thatr we agree that we disagree. Done. Moderator Action: Trolling
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Yes, you did... see next quote where you attack me for disagreeing with you.
So where did I write I'm better than you or you are crazy? Nowhere! READ THE POST. Oh, and btw- it doesn't matter to me if you still disagree. I don't care.

won't explain your own in-bringing of multiplayer in this discussion AGAIN... :rolleyes:

The rest of your post isn't even worth mentioning - so I spare that - it has been answered by others thankfully... Cheers! :D

The only reason steam is mandatory is that they MADE it mandatory - and that's all that you don't get!
 
I don't know how Gamespy is implemented, but Steamworks, as has been repeatedly pointed out many times, is integrated right into the game it is used in.

EDIT: Not ALL Steam/Steamworks features are integrated, but some like the stuff for multiplayer, is.
I don't see how it could possibly be that different. Even if it is, Firaxis could have just added an if statement denying access to multiplayer features if steam isn't installed. It's that easy.

Yet it seems to be doing quite well in terms of popularity and sales.
Some people are willing to pay an arm and a leg for really fast connections. When you can get fast internet for less than $50/month then maybe the US will be ready.

You can install them elsewhere but it would be nice for people with multiple hard drives/partitions to give the option during installation.
That only details how to move the steam folder. You still need to have games within it.


I don't see how that is any less convenient for modding. The developer now enabling mods to be installed in a separate folder from the main game would yes.
For civ4, I simply need to go to C:\Civilization IV (since that's where I installed it). The equivalent path for civ5 is C:\Steam\steamapps\common\sid meier's civilization v. One of these involves a lot more clicking than the other. Granted, in Windows 7 you can pin these to the taskbar, but on an older OS this can be annoying.

Its not really any different, you can just get away with ignoring the EULA when its not attached to an account (Steam, MMORPGs, etc).
Last time I checked, a game that requires steam is tied to an account unless you use it only as a really expensive paperweight.

As far as I'm concerned, EULAs are unethical and are only legal because some activist judges decided to hand power to our corporate overlords. A real contract requires negotiation, not just "click agree or we get your money and you get nothing".
 
This has already been explained to you MULTIPLE TIMES in this EXACT SAME THREAD. How can you still NOT understand why Civ5 requires Steam because it uses Steamworks for the multiplayer?

And no, I do not care if you don't like that it is required for the SP portion as well, not liking something does not change the facts, neither does plugging your ears and going "la la la la".

I don't believe it.

And even if it is true, I don't want to have to use Steam for a game where the game play does not require networking.

Based on the results of the two surveys at Bethesda forums (Skyrim, Steam, and You (n=484) What if Skyrim is Steam Exclusive? (n=424)) and the one on Survey Monkey linked in my signature (n=108 [right now]), something like 50% of prospective buyers of a highly anticipated AAA game that might be Steam exclusive (Bethsoft's Skyrim) agree on this point:

We would prefer not to be required to use Steam for singleplayer computer games in which game play does not involve networking.

It is clear some of you guys really like Steam, and that is good for you. But that is not a good reason for the other third to half of us who would prefer not to have to use it to use it. Neither are any of the other arguments that have been presented in this thread for why Civ5 requires Steam.
 
I don't believe it.

And even if it is true, I don't want to have to use Steam for a game where the game play does not require networking.

Based on the results of the two surveys at Bethesda forums (Skyrim, Steam, and You (n=484) What if Skyrim is Steam Exclusive? (n=424)) and the one on Survey Monkey linked in my signature (n=108 [right now]), something like 50% of prospective buyers of a highly anticipated AAA game that might be Steam exclusive (Bethsoft's Skyrim) agree on this point:

We would prefer not to be required to use Steam for singleplayer computer games in which game play does not involve networking.

It is clear some of you guys really like Steam, and that is good for you. But that is not a good reason for the other third to half of us who would prefer not to have to use it to use it. Neither are any of the other arguments that have been presented in this thread for why Civ5 requires Steam.

So whats the alternative to Steamworks on Skyrim?

(this question may be a test of your ability to offer realistic solutions)
 
Sell via multiple channels, including Steam; that is what Paradox/Taleworlds did with Mount&Blade Warband.

For example, my version of Warband I bought off the Gamersgate online store. It used a serial key to authenticate. Other guys bought their version on Steam. I presume it uses the standard Steam Client method(s) to authenticate.

The Gamersgate method I describe is used for scores of games, many published by Paradox. Paradox is not going out of business, indeed they are expanding and thriving. Rather compelling indirect proof that "CD Keys don't work" is a spurious excuse for why Steamworks or similar DRMs are "necessary."

As for the "designed in Steamworks" and therefore requires Steam to run argument: Get Mr. Gabe to release those "failsafe keys" that have been claimed to exist for in the event Valve goes out of business. Problem solved.
 
That's an alternative to selling on Steam, not to using Steamworks. Steamworks is not Steam, its a whole platform. I've said this before, but either you completely ignored that, or just can't seem to get it.

So lets hear an alternative solution to Skyrim using Steamworks.

Please bear in mind, your alternative has to offer automated patching, online sales, easy downloads within a single client (none of this download installer in firefox, then installer installs a second client which then downloads just that one game), community features, achievements, multiplayer, possibly the VAC system, cloud space for saves/settings, ability to easily beta test the game with a select group of people, development tools, statistic, bug reports, customizeable installers, encryption of pre-distributed media..I could go on, but I think my point is made. Oh wait, I forgot the one last thing, your alternative has to have an install base in the millions, for starters.


As a programmer, I look at that list and see that if I want a lot of those features, I am much better off rolling with Steamworks than my own.
 
That's an alternative to selling on Steam, not to using Steamworks. Steamworks is not Steam, its a whole platform. I've said this before, but either you completely ignored that, or just can't seem to get it.

So lets hear an alternative solution to Skyrim using Steamworks.

I realize it might be hard to imagine, but: what if the developers just simply did NOT USE STEAMWORKS? Is that still possible you think?

Or have developments in the past few years made it impossible for game developers to actually make games without using Steamworks?

Lets see, hmmm. Paradox games makes games without Steamworks. Civ4 was made without Steamworks. Fallout3 was made without Steamworks, and on and on we go, innumerable games have been, and I expect will be made without Steamworks.

Was this a trick question?

Assuming for just a second that Steamworks really does make it IMPOSSIBLE for the game to run without Steam (which the putative "failsafe codes" for when/if Valve ever went out of business bring into question), then as I see it, the developers have two choices: (1) Use Steamworks, gaining whatever benefits it brings, and alienating 25 to 50% of their customers (assuming those studies are representative, which they may not be, granted). (2) Figure out how to make the game without Steamworks, and/or negotiate with Valve to get them to release enough of that "failsafe code" functionality that some non-Steam versions of the game can be made to run without the Steam Client app or networking to Steam.

Number 1 likely involves some loss of revenue from (a) initial missed sales, compounded by (b) continued and moderated reduced sales as a result of the discontent resulting from releasing it Steam exclusive. It would be a matter for the publisher to estimate if the benefits of using Steamworks were sufficient to compensate for those losses.

Number 2 likely involves bigger slice taken by Valve.
 
Huh, that didn't go in the direction I expected!

I note that you neglected to suggest alternative DRM solutions, Anthropoid. Why don't you suggest one, make another poll thread advocating it then see if the %age gap between anti-Steam hardliners and anti-DRM hardliners is sufficient that you can pitch this alternative to Bethseda as a good idea.
 
Get Mr. Gabe to release those "failsafe keys" that have been claimed to exist for in the event Valve goes out of business.

Good point! I'll contact Blizzard too in regards to how I can continue to play WoW after Blizzard goes out of business! I mean I paid $60 for the game, $40 for each expansion, and $15/month for the past few years...I'm entitled to play it forever, right??

/sarcasm
 
I don't believe DRM is necessary, so why would I suggest alternative solutions?

On the contrary, I would ask the publishers to _prove_, not just assert or speculate, but PROVE to us that DRM (a) really helps (b) that it really is necessary.

WoW is a MMOG. What salience does that have to a singleplayer turn-based strategy game?
 
I realize it might be hard to imagine, but: what if the developers just simply did NOT USE STEAMWORKS? Is that still possible you think?

Or have developments in the past few years made it impossible for game developers to actually make games without using Steamworks?

Lets see, hmmm. Paradox games makes games without Steamworks. Civ4 was made without Steamworks. Fallout3 was made without Steamworks, and on and on we go, innumerable games have been, and I expect will be made without Steamworks.

Was this a trick question?

Assuming for just a second that Steamworks really does make it IMPOSSIBLE for the game to run without Steam (which the putative "failsafe codes" for when/if Valve ever went out of business bring into question), then as I see it, the developers have two choices: (1) Use Steamworks, gaining whatever benefits it brings, and alienating 25 to 50% of their customers (assuming those studies are representative, which they may not be, granted). (2) Figure out how to make the game without Steamworks, and/or negotiate with Valve to get them to release enough of that "failsafe code" functionality that some non-Steam versions of the game can be made to run without the Steam Client app or networking to Steam.

Number 1 likely involves some loss of revenue from (a) initial missed sales, compounded by (b) continued and moderated reduced sales as a result of the discontent resulting from releasing it Steam exclusive. It would be a matter for the publisher to estimate if the benefits of using Steamworks were sufficient to compensate for those losses.

Number 2 likely involves bigger slice taken by Valve.

Okay, let's take this scenario. I am a developer for a major game, and I need all of the features I listed in my previous post:

Please bear in mind, your alternative has to offer automated patching, online sales, easy downloads within a single client (none of this download installer in firefox, then installer installs a second client which then downloads just that one game), community features, achievements, multiplayer, possibly the VAC system, cloud space for saves/settings, ability to easily beta test the game with a select group of people, development tools, statistic, bug reports, customizeable installers, encryption of pre-distributed media..I could go on, but I think my point is made. Oh wait, I forgot the one last thing, your alternative has to have an install base in the millions, for starters.

No, I have several options. I can use Steamworks, which I know has all of these features. I can roll my own, then I will for sure have all these features. I can also forego most of them, or find inferior substitutes.

I also have a deadline and a budget. If I meet the deadline, I sell more units. If I meet the budget, I can sell each unit for less, and make the same amount of profit.

Lets analyze the last two options first.

Rolling my own: I need several developers, high-level developers too at that, who can make the framework, the backend service and then integrate it all into the game. This will cost me a nice chunk of my budget and a good amount of my developers' time. Now everything else has to be hurried along or I risk not shipping on time. The market wont care if I have these shiny features when my game is late to ship. If I do hurry, some of the parts of the game will be of lower quality. I also can't afford quite everything now, because some of my budget went into this framework. Maybe Ill get worse voice actors, or maybe Ill have to skimp on QA. Either way, Im selling less units, making less profits, and am less likely to get funding for another game.

I also end up with back-end costs for distribution, I need to have more physical retail channels, so I pay even more for shelf space. My profits are even lower now, and due to the inferior quality of the game, long-term sales are low.

Foregoing all these features is even worse. I may be on time and on budget, but my game gets hammered in reviews. Although I sell quite a few units, its less so than if I had all the features. I dont have support costs, but no one wants to play my game after a couple months anyways, and again, profits are shot.

Now the Steamworks option: I get valve to do all the heavy lifting, and get a couple guys to integrate Steamworks into my game. I pay licensing fees, but now I have a guaranteed audience of millions, I dont have the back-end costs, Im still on budget, still on time. Game is a success.


This is the games industry. This is the software industry. Yes, before, games did not use Steamworks, because partly, Steamworks was not available, and partly because the benefits were not yet recognized. Digital distribution was not a very viable option, so all companies were vying for the same shelf space, balancing out the market a bit. Now though, you need digital distribution to succeed, and so, the features Steamworks brings to the table are mighty attractive. If you skimp on these features, you will be compared to companies that didn't, and it will be a black mark on your company's record.

Some companies succeed outside of this formula, and good on them. I applaud them, and thoroughly support them. But I also realize that without said formula, there would be no pc games market, and no one would be successful. You on the other hand seem to be running around with your fingers in your ears, yelling "lalalala, I cant hear you!" Pretty much every point you brought up has already been addressed, but you, like a bovine, keep regurgitating the same arguments.
 
Please bear in mind, your alternative has to offer . . . snip . . . As a programmer, I look at that list and see that if I want a lot of those features, I am much better off rolling with Steamworks than my own.

Spoken like a Valve sales person *applauds!*

Moderator Action: This comment is not appropriate. Please don't associate favorable comments towards a company with a person working or acting like they work for that company.

No, I don't think the "alternative to Steamworks" needs to offer all of obviously marvellous SteamFeatures you described for the simple reason that: a game that does not require Steam is not going to hassle, if not completely alienate 25 to 50% of its prospective customers :eek:

There are alternatives to everything you list. Indeed, game developers have been taking care of all those functions for years. It really is just a matter of whether it is worth it to take the hit in lost sales from requiring Steam compared to the benefits of handing over all those functions/features to Valve. I obviously cannot answer that fiscal question for 2K, Bethesda or anyone else.

But as a fan, with my ear to the rail so to speak, I can promote discussion about the topic, create surveys like those I've described, and promote gamers participating in those surveys. Valve's sales department may have spun a convincing story about the numbers and the relative benefits, a "subscriber base in the millions" no doubt playing a critical part in such a pitch. But I have my doubts that Valve, or 2K or any of the other ones have ever bothered to collect any data about how many prospective buyers they might lose by going Steam exclusive.

The data I am pointing to is certainly not conclusive, but they suggest that a considerable wad may be inadvertently "left on the table" by virtue of making a game only available via Steam. In contrast, figuring out a way to make it available via multiple channels is not likely to suffer those same losses.

This is the games industry. This is the software industry. Yes, before, games did not use Steamworks, because partly, Steamworks was not available, and partly because the benefits were not yet recognized. Digital distribution was not a very viable option, so all companies were vying for the same shelf space, balancing out the market a bit. Now though, you need digital distribution to succeed, and so, the features Steamworks brings to the table are mighty attractive. If you skimp on these features, you will be compared to companies that didn't, and it will be a black mark on your company's record.

Steamworks is not the only means of digital distribution.

Now the Steamworks option: I get valve to do all the heavy lifting, and get a couple guys to integrate Steamworks into my game. I pay licensing fees, but now I have a guaranteed audience of millions, I dont have the back-end costs, Im still on budget, still on time. Game is a success.

Assuming that annoying/hassling 50% of your customer base, with half of those expressing a resolution not to buy your games if they use Steam = success because it helps projects achieve short-term success is the way a programmer thinks. I'm asking you to stop and think a little more long-term and to take into account that customer satisfaction, meaning satisfying the broadest possible customer base, not just the ones on Steam.

Companies do not succeed by making widgets at the lowest possible costs and selling at the highest possible profit. They succeed by making as many widget users as possible as close to 100% satisfied and loyal customers as possible.
 
Spoken like a Valve sales person *applauds!*

Nothing shoots your credibility more dead than a sarcastic comment like this. It just shows that you already have your own bias, one you're unlikely to forego, and treat everything I say as pure noise.

So let it be said at that, I do not work for Valve, I am not affiliated with Valve, I do not contract or consult for Valve or any of their subsidiaries and contractors.


What I am is a satisfied and educated consumer of the services and goods offered by Valve.


Steamworks is not the only means of digital distribution.

It is the most successful.

Assuming that annoying/hassling 50% of your customer base, with half of those expressing a resolution not to buy your games if they use Steam = success because it helps projects achieve short-term success is the way a programmer thinks. I'm asking you to stop and think a little more long-term and to take into account that customer satisfaction, meaning satisfying the broadest possible customer base, not just the ones on Steam.

First off, in the way a programmer thinks? We think of having to support a product 10 years down the line fyi. Secondly, I do not see where 50% of whoevers customers expressed a resolution that they will not buy a game if it is built on Steamworks. They said they'd prefer if it didn't, which is meaningless. I can say I prefer to not argue with you about your inane ideas, but yet here I am.
 
Basically, you're paranoid. You're on of those people that refuses to enter your CC info on a website because they can steal it aren't you?

Moderator Action: You can make a point without getting personal and calling someone paranoid.

You're arguing a losing point. Steam sales account for a tremendous number of PC game sales. Why do you think brick & mortar stores carry so few PC games anymore? Because physical copies don't sell.

From a publisher perspective - physical copies cost a lot of money. Game boxes, DVD's, DVD cases, paper manuals, and store cuts contribute to a large cost. It's a lot cheaper to make the game available electronically. I don't have raw numbers, but I'm willing to bet that they can sell half as many copies and still make more money had they released physical copies.

From a consumer standpoint, Steam works well. Why do I want to drive to a store and need the use of a DVD when I can download and play? I can install the game on any PC at any time by just logging into Steam. The game automatically patches and updates for me. It's lightweight and has no effect on PC performance. Valve makes a lot of money. Claiming they're going to go out of business is like claiming Microsoft is eventually going under and that we need to avoid programs that rely on Windows.
 
I don't need your estimate of my "credibility." I have data; see links in my sig. See links in the post above.

~30% of us will not buy Skyrim if it uses Steam/Steamworks.

Another ~25% would prefer if there are non Steam/Steamworks options, though they will probably buy it anyway.

As I'm sure you will happily note, the remaining 45 to 50% say they will buy it whether it requires Steam or not.
 
I don't believe DRM is necessary, so why would I suggest alternative solutions?

So you're an idealist that campaigns for the campaigning without any expectation of changing anything?

How many AAA titles this past year have been DRM-less? How many have not included some kind of online registration/authentication?

If you're not going to be practical and suggest a realistic outcome Bethesda might adopt, why bother at all?

I don't need your estimate of my "credibility." I have data; see links in my sig. See links in the post above.

~30% of us will not buy Skyrim if it uses Steam/Steamworks.

Another ~25% would prefer if there are non Steam/Steamworks options, though they will probably buy it anyway.

This is laughable, 30% from a thread with a leading title intended to draw particular people towards it as well as the link having been pimped in other such forums.

They will make their decision based on sales of F:NV unless you come up with strong evidence and a campaign with achievable goals.


As I'm sure you will happily note, the remaining 45 to 50% say they will buy it whether it requires Steam or not.
Yes, because thats how you phrased the poll! More telling are the options you didn't include.

Moderator Action: Please don't accuse others of pimping or call their posts laughable.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
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