Steph's and Sandris's Napoleonic wars scenario

[Steph]

Now that is what I call getting creative. Steph, I might like to use that idea in some board games that I am working on. If I do, I will need to give you full credit. You might be a programmer, but you also have the thinking of a game designer. Several BRAVOS are in order!

Actually, I started designing games before I started to learn how to program.

An unintended but good side effect for Spain

That's no unintended, the purpose was to check that the AI build correctly unit produing buildings (ie Barracks). As each civ as its own specific building, I set it correct only for France and Spain to start and see what happens. And Spain builds usually one or two fortification / city, and then start building Cazadores barracks, Coraceros barraks, etc.

I'm wondering if I should set the cavalry barracks as "replace other building" flags. I wonder if the AI will spend its time replacing buildings... Or if it will just build the strongest one, or have it balanced.

More tests will tell.

BTW, I will now add the remaining buildings and techs, and preplace the units on the map.

The scenario will soon start to be playable. I'll need some commited testers to test it.

Warning: it's still far from being completed! There is no civpedia entry at all, only some buildings, and the balancing of units is not finished, I did a very rough draft.

I hope to be ready at the end of the week for pre alpha version.

The goal will be to check that the game mechanism (ie production of units via building, recruitment of "allied" units, etc.) is correct, and I will then polsih everything.

@Timerover : any news about a basic draft for the navy?

 

[Virote_Considon]

Remember that if you're going to use the "Replaces Buildings with this Flag" flag, the AI won't touch the building unless it increases production by some amount.

 

[Steph]

I've almost finished adding the unit producing buildings, and I'm wondering what should be the proper number of turns to produce units.

The time scale is one turn = 1 week. Each civ full start with a full army, so the buildings will be there to generate reinforcement, and replace losses. Therefore, they don't need to be available too soon, and they won't as you need to "rediscover" line infantry, grenadier, cuirassiers, etc to build new barracks.

For the moment, I have the following settings:
- Miliitia : 6 turns : real time = 1.5 months
- Line infantry : 8 turns, RT = 2 months
- Light infantry : 10 turns, RT = 2.5 months
- Grenadier : 12 turns, RT = 3 months
- Guard grenadier : 18 turns, RT = 4.5 months
- Hussars / Dragoons : 16 turns = RT = 4 months
- Lancers : 18 turns, RT = 4.5 months
- Cuirassiers : 20 turns, RT = 5 monhts
- Guard cavalry : 24 turns, RT = 6 months

I want the main force to be line infantry, with additional support units.
I don't want the army to build too fast, especially as you can have several barracks in the same city.

In theory, in 24 turns, a city could produce 3 line infantry, 2 grenadiers, 2 light infantry, 1 hussar, 1 dragoon, 1 lancers and 1 cuirassiers.

However, 24 turns is half a year. So it means in one year you can have only 2 cuirassiers.

Is it enough to compensate for losses? Should I make the unit produce a little faster?

I'm considering using this setting:

- Miliitia : 3 turns : real time = 3 weeks
- Line infantry : 5 turns, RT = 1.25 months
- Light infantry : 6 turns, RT = 1.5 months
- Grenadier : 8 turns, RT = 2 months
- Guard grenadier : 12 turns, RT = 3 months
- Hussars / Dragoons : 8 turns = RT = 2 months
- Lancers : 10 turns, RT = 2.5 months
- Cuirassiers : 12 turns, RT = 3 monhts
- Guard cavalry : 16 turns, RT = 4 months

What do you think?

 

[tom2050]

I've In theory, in 24 turns, a city could produce 3 line infantry, 2 grenadiers, 2 light infantry, 1 hussar, 1 dragoon, 1 lancers and 1 cuirassiers.

However, 24 turns is half a year. So it means in one year you can have only 2 cuirassiers.

That is for 1 city though, with the whole civ, it would be multiplied by the number of cities (theoretically). We all know that the AI loves to rush every single last unit to the front; and AI usually makes poor attack decisions. From AI point of view, it may need more than that to keep a fight going consistently. I don't think higher difficulty levels will have a huge impact on AI building massive armies this way. So I think it depends on which gives human player more of a challenge.

Tom

 

[Steph]

The unit producing building have a negative impact on happyness, and have a different upkeep cost (ex: line infantry 1, grenadier 2, cuirassier 3).
So maintening a lot of them can be difficult.

Tests will tell how well the AI can handle that.

 

[timerover51]

Presently, I am teaching 5 hours a day for the next three weeks. I will work on an order of battle when I am done. As for a basic list of ships and animations needed, see following:

3-deck Ship of the Line/First Rate: Pre-positioned as flagships, with no additional ones built. The British, French, and Spanish will have these. Use Man-of-War image.

2-deck Ship of the Line/Third Rate: Standard ship of the line for navies of the period, and can be built in a coastal city. Nations: Britain, France, Spain, the Netherlands, Russia, Turkey, Denmark, Sweden. The Dutch ships should have slightly lower attack and defense values, as their ships were limited in draft by the shallows off of the Dutch coast, which in turn limited size and armament. Use Man-of-War image for everyone except the Spanish (use Galleon) and the Turks (use Carrack).

Frigate: Ideally, you would have two sizes, a light and a heavy frigate. I suspect that you will go with just one type. Pretty much everyone except the Prussians, who had no navy to speak of. Use the Frigate image for everyone.

Privateer: Everyone used them, and just use the Privateer image.

Transport: Probably best to use a frigate image for this, with limited attack and defense values.

Galleys: Turks in Mediterranean, and the Swedes and Russians in the Baltic. Best to use the Medieval Galley image.

Although the ships did not differ that much, the crew quality varied greatly and this had a massive effect on combat. The British were the best (unless for some reason you include the US), with the Dutch equalling them, but hampered by weaker ships. French should be no more than Regular, with the odd Veteran, while the Spanish should be Conscript with the odd Regular. I will get you the rest later. You might have to use negative hit points for some ships to get the crew value right.

 

[Steph]

Thanks, I will start from here.

Could Italy / Naples also use Galley in the mediterranean sea?

Also, I may let Portugal / Prussia / Austria build ship of the line, but not from start, they'll have to research it.

Same for Saxony / Bavaria / Poland. They'll start with no navy, but should they manage to capture a coastal city, they need to be able to build a navy... Weak...

 

[Steph]

I have a small problem with using the medieval galley. It has an arrow attack, but no gun attack.

Should I also use some small ships such as corvette / sloop?

 

[Steph]

Here is what I'm planning to use (scroll at the bottom of the page).

 

[timerover51]

I have a small problem with using the medieval galley. It has an arrow attack, but no gun attack.

I was sort of thinking this galley as the one to use.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=79551

Should I also use some small ships such as corvette / sloop?

You could, but aside from chasing other countries transports and small ships, not sure how useful they would be. Aside from a few really odd combats, like Cochrane in the brig Speedy verses the Spanish Gamo, a small ship really had no chance against a larger ship. It should be possible for two heavy or a combination of three or more frigates of both types to take a 2-Decker, but a 2-Decker one on one verses a frigate should be always a win for the 2-Decker.

Could Italy / Naples also use Galley in the mediterranean sea?

Yes, they could use them, as well a Venice if you have that city-state in the game.

Also, I may let Portugal / Prussia / Austria build ship of the line, but not from start, they'll have to research it.

Portugal is borderline for the ship of the line, but they would have had a hard time finding enough wood for one. Prussia/Austria, small stuff, and maybe even frigates, but not a ship of the line. They would not build any because they would have no idea as to how to use it, how to build it, or how to man it.

Same for Saxony / Bavaria / Poland. They'll start with no navy, but should they manage to capture a coastal city, they need to be able to build a navy... Weak...

See Above. An effective navy was not something that you could develop on short notice, even during the Age of Sail or naval warfare.

As for your ship building table. NO country built a 3-decker during the Napoleonic Wars. A well-handled 2-decker could take one, as proved numerous times by the Royal Navy verses the Spanish and the French. Use the same frigates as everyone else for Spain and Portugal, as their ships would not be significantly different. Using false colors was a common tactic back then. The Turkish ship could be a bit different, but the Turks had at least one light frigate that had been built in the US, and delivered as tribute to the Barbary Corsairs, who in turn presented it to the Ottomans.

 

[Steph]

I was sort of thinking this galley as the one to use.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=79551

That's the one.. With only arrow attacks.

You could, but aside from chasing other countries transports and small ships, not sure how useful they would be.

Explore and locate ennemy ships / privateer.

Yes, they could use them, as well a Venice if you have that city-state in the game.

In 1815, Venetia is controlled by Austria. Perhaps Austria could build Venetian galley then?

Portugal is borderline for the ship of the line, but they would have had a hard time finding enough wood for one. Prussia/Austria, small stuff, and maybe even frigates, but not a ship of the line. They would not build any because they would have no idea as to how to use it, how to build it, or how to man it.

If Prussia capture Dutch cities, they could ask the Dutch shipyard to build ships, and recruit Dutch officers and sailors.

As for your ship building table. NO country built a 3-decker during the Napoleonic Wars.

A game is not an historical documentary. So I don't see why a country could not built a 3-decker if they wish. However, it will be difficult, so mostly preplaced units will be used.

 

[Steph]

A few more tech icons.

Guard infantry

Naval infantry

Militia

Militia

Guard cavalry

Foot artillery

Horse artillery

1st rate ship of the line

 

[Steph]

I should soon start to add artillery.

I will then work on government. I plan to create one government for each civilization, but it will be the only one they have.
So they should never change. Time frame is too short to allow political changes .

The government will be similar, but I can use them to simulate a few things.

For instance, the Spanish government can have a very strong resistance to the French government, making the capture of Spanish cities by France harder.

Now, I have a question about the speed of units.
Currently, infantry and artillery have one MP.
Heavy cavalry and horse artillery have two MP.
Light cavalry have 3 MP.

I'm considering modifying it as follow:
- Militia 1 MP
- "Conscript" (ie unit of your own nationality build in any city, even ennemy, with the normal method, ie not via unit producing improvment) = 1 MP
- Foot artillery : 1 MP
- Infantry : 2 MP
- Horse artillery : 2 MP
- Heavy cavalry : 3 MP
- Light cavalry : 4 MP.

The game will be a little faster, but as the map is big, I don't think it may be better.

And this way, you will have militia to protect home .

 

[Ozymandias]

In spirit, the MF notions are fine - except, do you really want line infantry to have a chance to retreat before a cavalry charge?

Best,

Oz

 

[Steph]

I suppose on a European map the concept of cavalry charge is a bit unclear.

And cavalry still have one more MP than infantry (for heavy), or 2 (for light). Your infantry wont be able to escape hussars and Cossacks!

Beside, if you do this, your foot artillery will get capture!

The main problem I see is infantry being able to move next to you can attack in the same turn.

Well, that's what light infantry with defensive bombardment is for? And you can also use fast moving scouting cavalry, with radar, to find where the ennemy army his and try to outmanoeuver it with a little more mobility.



Beside, France is 20 tiles from North to South, so that's 50 km/ tiles. With a time scale of one week / turn, it means the army would move 100 km / week.

Seems reasonnable.

 

[Moosezilla]

Forced march would eat that up. Sounds "Grand Tactical".

 

[Ozymandias]

Forced march would eat that up. Sounds "Grand Tactical".

My rule of thumb is that pre-mechanized armies can (in decent terrain) cover 20 miles/day = ~30 klicks/day - Of course, combat would diminish this, yet it costs 1 MF to attack, so this presumes a Line Infantry unit could advance 10 miles - ~15 klicks/week and still engage in combat; seems reasonable.

Best,

Oz

P.S. For the oared ships, why not use aaglo's gallease? (sorry, @#$!! can't file - a .jpg of said ship - ATM)

-O.

 

[Steph]

Yes, 30 km /day seems reasonnable, so that's 210 km / week, and so twice faster than 2 MP for infantry would give in the scenario.

Even if they go a bit slower to scout the area, get supply, etc, it seems OK.

I'll change the base movement cost soon.

Now that I'have added government and wonders in my epic mod, it's time to do the same on this scenario.

For the ships, I think I used everything I could with a gun animation

 

[Steph]

Here is what I finally did:
- Each country can now build ONE infantry type ("garrison") without any resource. They usually use the line infantry graphics, have 1 MP, and are weaker. They are there mostly to be sure there is something to build if you built everything else.
- When you have the proper tech and resource, you can build unit producing building. In each city, you can build only the correct building. Ie in Bavaria, you can recruit only Bavarian troops. By default, the units have 1 MP (infantry).
- Then, the rightfull owner of the city (Bavaria for Bavarian city) can upgrade the unit to full strength, and then it has 2 MP (except troops like Militia).
- For cavalry it's the same: base heavy cavalry has 2 MP, 3 then upgraded, light cavalry has 3 P, 4 when upgraded.

In other word, if with France you want to invade let say Italy. You conquer a few cities, and need reinforcement to carry on with the invasion.
You can:
- Recruit French troops in France. They will be strong and faster, but they are far away, and will take time to reach you.
- Recruit Italian troops in Italy. They will be a little less strong, and slower (ie not really willing to fight abroad for you, but they can be useful to protect your conquered cities)
- Recruit French garrison troops in Italy. As it's kind of "forced recruit", they will be weak and slow.

I now have a question about buildings and technologies. The scenario will be mostly warfare oriented, and I want it to be fast.
Beside the unit producing building, what building should be in?
I currently have
- Church
- Cathedral
- MArket
- Bank
- Library
- University

I plan to add harbour, theatre, school, courthouse, factory as improvment.

And a few wonders. Probably no more than a dozen.

Question 1 : do you feel more improvment are needed?
Question 2 : should I add techs in the tech tree for them, or should they be available from start?

In the same way, I think options such as "road bridges rivers" should be available from start. I could add a "Pionneer" tech though, but I think it may be more interesting to jump directly into war.

Same for diplomacy: available from start, or should it require a tech first?

 

[Ozymandias]

Here is what I finally did:
- Each country can now build ONE infantry type ("garrison") without any resource. They usually use the line infantry graphics, have 1 MP, and are weaker. They are there mostly to be sure there is something to build if you built everything else.
- When you have the proper tech and resource, you can build unit producing building. In each city, you can build only the correct building. Ie in Bavaria, you can recruit only Bavarian troops. By default, the units have 1 MP (infantry).
- Then, the rightfull owner of the city (Bavaria for Bavarian city) can upgrade the unit to full strength, and then it has 2 MP (except troops like Militia).
- For cavalry it's the same: base heavy cavalry has 2 MP, 3 then upgraded, light cavalry has 3 P, 4 when upgraded.

In other word, if with France you want to invade let say Italy. You conquer a few cities, and need reinforcement to carry on with the invasion.
You can:
- Recruit French troops in France. They will be strong and faster, but they are far away, and will take time to reach you.
- Recruit Italian troops in Italy. They will be a little less strong, and slower (ie not really willing to fight abroad for you, but they can be useful to protect your conquered cities)
- Recruit French garrison troops in Italy. As it's kind of "forced recruit", they will be weak and slow.

I now have a question about buildings and technologies. The scenario will be mostly warfare oriented, and I want it to be fast.
Beside the unit producing building, what building should be in?
I currently have
- Church
- Cathedral
- MArket
- Bank
- Library
- University

I plan to add harbour, theatre, school, courthouse, factory as improvment.

And a few wonders. Probably no more than a dozen.

Question 1 : do you feel more improvment are needed?
Question 2 : should I add techs in the tech tree for them, or should they be available from start?

In the same way, I think options such as "road bridges rivers" should be available from start. I could add a "Pionneer" tech though, but I think it may be more interesting to jump directly into war.

Same for diplomacy: available from start, or should it require a tech first?

A (hopefully) germane question: at what MF levels does the AI start taking far too much time to complete its moves? (I ask because of your MP=4 cavalry.)

Best,

Oz