Steph's mod 5 : early testing

Steph

Multi Many Tasks man
Retired Moderator
Joined
Sep 1, 2002
Messages
18,162
Location
Pont de l'Arn, FRANCE
I know, I know, I bever really finished the first 4 versions... But I always come with completly new ideas that requires heavy modifications.

All who are interested can visit this page to see the unit lines. Warning, it's massive.

After several months of doing nothing civ related, I went back to my mod, with a brand new way to recruit the units, via autoproducing buildings

I have finished re organizing my land units (infantry and cavalry, artillery and navy are still created olf fashion) to work with the new auto production method.

Recruitment mechanism

Swordsmen are built via 3 small wonders (3 swordsmen lines)
Spearmen are built via 1 improvment, and 2 small wonders (3 spearmen lines). The first line can also be built normally.
Range infantry are built by 2 small wonder (and a third later) (3 different lines)

Cavalry and range cavalry are built bia 2 improvment requiring horse in the city radius
Heavy cavalry are built via a small wonder (1 line for heavy, one for range, one for cav)

Settler will also be generated via the palace, at a slow pace, and be buildable directly, but they will require a lot of pop and be long to build.

Each building produce a "recruit". This recruit is then followed by a long upgrade chain, for all the different eras and factions.
Moreover, when the unit has an armor, it requires iron or copper. But to avoid breaking the chain, I made (-) additional version, which are weaker but requires no iron.
So if you have iron, you recruit directly the strong unit, if you don't it's a weaker unit, but anyway you get the correct unit for your faction and era.

I have also put camel and elephant as extra unit int he ugrade path for the spearmen or archer lines (produced via one of the small wonder). If you have camel or elepehant, you will recruit them. If not, then you simple get a spearman or archer.

I have 3 different lines, but some are just using copies. Example for Hellas:
Line 1 = Achean spearmen --> Spartan spearman --> Macedonian phalanx
Line 2 = Achean spearmen --> Athenean hoplite--> Macedonian phalanx
Line 3 = Achean spearmen --> Spartan hoplite--> Macedonian phalanx

This mechanism allows a wide variety of units when they are available, and just fall back to "standard units" when there is no extra unit available.

Evolutive civ
The mod is designed to be played with my expanded game mechanism. If you don't know it, it's a small program tht monitors the autosave, and when a civ reaches a new era, it takes the autosave, and generate a newsave game. You need to load it to keep playing. This mechanism allows:
- More than 4 eras (8 done, 6 more in preparation, 10 more planned)
- Evolutive civ: the name of the civ, the leaders, the cities, the traits, the name of the leader, etc. will change when you reach a new era. Also, when reaching a new era all you existing units are automatically upgraded to match the new civ (ex: you play as France. In Era 4 you have gallic units. When reaching era 5, yhty all became frankish units, with new stats and graphics).
- Evolutive graphics : the city graphics will change with the 8 eras, the graphics for irrigation could also change.
- Civ specific graphics and era : when you go to the science advisor, the name of the eras are specific yo your civilization.
- Evolutive attributes : some parameters, like the size of city level 2 /3, or the output of terrains and irrigation, can vary with the current era.
- Techs, units, building are added to the rules when needed and removed when not necessary. This way, even if I ahve 1000s of units, the game remain relatively fast to load, the the civpedia manageable, because you don't have all of them at the same time. Also; when you start playing, and go to the civpedia, you can see only elemtns from era 1. More will be revealed as you advance in the game (i.e. in the Bronze age, you don't even have an idea that submarines will be available later).

Status
For the moment, I have done era 1 to 8 (up to late medieval), for Britain, France, Germany, Hellas, Iberia, Italy, Russia, Scandinavia, China, Arabia, Maghreb, Egypt and Africa. I plan to add soon Persia, and perhaps a few others, but others would share some of the unit animations with the existing civ(Portugal, Netherlands, Poland...).

I have also predesigned era 9 to 14 (up to Napoleonic wars) to check the concepts when reaching gunpowder era

This represent 2000 units in the editor, including the copeis to fill the lines, and copies without resource.

The attributes of the units are still the old one from the standard recruitment method, I plan to rebalance them all. Since the knights will be done via small wonder compare to regular cavalry, I won't have too many of them, and so I can make them real stronger.


Testers needed
The purpose would be to check the auto producing method, see if the units are built too fast/too slow, etc.

I would like to know who is ready to invest time testing this, and if you prefer startign the tests as soon as possible, or if you prefer waiting that I rebalanced all the units.

Important disclaimer : This mod will be very different from anything you tried before. There's not guarantee you'll like it. May be it's the start of a brand new experience with this good old game. May be it's a big waste of time...


Installation
It's a little complicated, since I had to cut the mod in several files.

First in your Conquest/Scenario folder, create a SH folder.

Then download all the following files, and unzip in the SH folder.

Main files(34.5 Mb)
Artillery (2.7 Mb)
Generic units(17.9 Mb)
African units(12.0 Mb)
Arabian units(27.8 Mb)
Barbarian units(10.6 Mb)
British units(59.0 Mb)
Chinese units(35.8 Mb)
Egyptian units(30.9 Mb)
French units(59.9 Mb)
German units(51.2 Mb)
Hellas units(39.0 Mb)
Iberian units(47.9 Mb)
Iberian units(54.1 Mb)
Maghreb units(32.0 Mb)
Russian units(58.3 Mb)
Scandinavian units(41.0 Mb)
Era specific graphics(6.3 Mb)
Ships(20.7 Mb)
Support units(7.22 Mb)
Text files(989 kb)

Then download Expanded scenario files (updated 2011-08-10) and unzip in your Conquest\Scenario folder (not in the SH folder).

If you don't have it already, download Microsoft Framework 3.5 to run my editor.

Grab the latest version of my editor here (updated 2011-08-09)


Running the game
- Start my editor
- Click on Start Expanded Game
- Select the scenario (Steph_History_1.biqx)
- Select your faction
- Select the starting era
- Generate a biq with the name you want.
- A new Window is opened "Expanded game Monitor". Select again Steph_History_1.biqx
- It's not really mandatory, but it may be useful to delete all your autosave from CivIII save folder
- Start Civ3 normally.
- Select Civ_Content, select the biq generate before.
- In the setup, when selecting the civ, you will see at the top, in big letter, the name of the civilization you must use. It shows the name of the civilization you have selected earlier, for the starting era.
- When the game start (you should be surprised by the speed with this many units ;) ), use tab switch if necessary to bring the small Monitor window in the front, so it's visible at the same time you play. It shows the number of turns.
- Play normally. When a civ reach a new era, a message appears in red in the monitor window. Generate a new save from the autosave, load it and resume play with the updated situation.

If you want to resume your game after you exited civ
- Start my editor, select "Resume expanded game". Select Steph_History_1.biqx
- Start CivIII, load the game, tabg switch to get the small monitor window on the top, and play.
 
A couple questions:

Have you had any issues with the computer autoproducing so far? I ran into a few when I added more autoproducing to my last game. There were some auto-producing improvements that they refused to make, some that they made and sold immediately. At times they would not upgrade the recruit to a unit even when they had all the requirements to do so. I think you'll have better luck since most of your units spawn from small wonders. Like you said, the spawning period is critical. Too fast and the player is inundated with more units than they need, and too slow and the player can be really stuck if they lose a lot of guys at once.

Second, does the evolutive era change occur at the end of every era? Or just every 3 or 4? When the player, or any player for that matter, reaches a new era, does it make everyone evolve? I'm just thinking about the Dark Ages for example, when you said that some civs' units actualy become weaker with an era change, and how the player could exploit this. Like waiting for the Romans to become fat and decadent before you pounce on them. Also, will the era change erase little things like extra culture and tourist attraction cash that come with time?

Anyway, I've been looking forward to any form of your game and would be glad to help. It's probably better if you finish rebalancing the units first to get them where you want, but I'd love to try testing if it will help. We're hitting our busiest time at work here, and then I'll be out of the country in September (in your country, actually), but I can try to squeeze in as much as possible.
 
Actually, the system is new, so I can't tell how well the AI is doing with that. Parts of the testers job!

Second, does the evolutive era change occur at the end of every era? Or just every 3 or 4? When the player, or any player for that matter, reaches a new era, does it make everyone evolve? I'm just thinking about the Dark Ages for example, when you said that some civs' units actualy become weaker with an era change, and how the player could exploit this. Like waiting for the Romans to become fat and decadent before you pounce on them. Also, will the era change erase little things like extra culture and tourist attraction cash that come with time?
The change happens with any civ change era. This specific civ is then updated to match the new traits, new names, new graphics, and its units are automatically upgraded. However, this happens for unit lines which were already existing. For instance, European won't get crossbow before they learn the tech, there archer will hust have slightly better stats and have new graphics.
Also; the first time a new era is reached (so when the first civ reaches era 2), then the rules in the game are updated to add new stuff (new tech, buildings, units), etc for era 2.
And when all the civ have reached era 2, then era 1 is "deleted". There can't be more than 4 eras at the same time. So if a civ is era 1 and another reaches era 5, then the lagging civ is advanced to era 2.
Normlally, you should keep the extra culture and tourist attraction, but I didn't tested that specifically, so you'd have to chck. And btrw, you can play more than 1000 turns. Actually, the game is virtually endless.

You are right that you can somehow exploit the game, but well, that's part of it. If you have strong roman neighbour, it's wise to avoid angering them!

The main cheating part is that nothing force you to generate the new save and load it. But well, if you don't want to play by the rule, it's not really my problem!
 
This sounds like The One I have been waiting for.
The ERA stuff is thrilling. Does it really work ???

If you have me as a tester I´m willing to put time on this.
It´s revolution and I can´t wait to see if this really works.

You better advance this to the goalline Steph and I be happy to help you if I can.
 
I'm just back home. Still some jet lag, so I don't expect to do really much too soon, my goal is to release an "alpha" (pre beta!) if possible next week end.

I'm not sure this version will be extremly enjoyable, since it will be the first playable version with the new auto production method, and it may be quite unbalanced.

And Cemo, yest these stuffs for the eras really work. But
- It requires more work from the modder, since you have much more to set up, so it takes longer to make the mod.
- The drawback is you have to reload saved games regularly to make it work.

Also, when playtesting I experienced a few crashes, but since when you reload and continue it seems to work, I'm not sure if it's related to my mod, or a more general crash.
 
I for one do not see patience or reloading as drawbacks. Looking forward to this and other mods makes for a brighter future. Oh, and by the way I must DL framework.net 3.5 I think.
 
Sounds like a concept worth trying out. Reloading doesn't bother me - I've been doing that since Civ3 was released (yeah, cheating with "new random seed"). For me, autumn/winter is the best time for indoor-activities such as testing your mod (if that's not too late?).
 
I still hope to release something sunday, but it's a lot of work, to put these 2000+ units in the upgrade path properly!
It will be a test version, without rebalancing of units. So offensive war will probably be more difficult than usual, since there will be relatively few offensive units. Later, I will make them stronger.

But before doing that, I'd prefer to have the feedback from some testers about the unit production mechanism.

In the meantime, all who are interested can visit this page. It shows the unit lines.
I have done era 1-8, 9-14 are just planned for later. I'll add them when era 1-8 have been validated. Also, only the European Civ + Egypt, Arabia, Maghreb, China and Africa will be playable. Other civs are there for later.
 
Bad news

I've made my unit producing buildings cost 0, have a maintenance of 0, produce 1
culture. I gave them a flavour and gave this flavour to the civilizations

And still, the AI takes forever to build it. They just produce warriors, spearmen, workers, and much later they produce the barracks.
So if I make them as soon as available (it takes only one turn), then I have several auto produced spearmen and warriors, but also archer and cavalry (they can only be auto produced) that the AI won't have.

I'm starting to wonder if this approach is viable as the AI really behave very poorly in debug mod.

BTW, I removed the settlers from the initial buildable units. If I don't do that, the stupid AI immediately starts creating a settler, even if it takes 90 turns. It does create the SW that takes one turn to create, and produce a settler every 30 turns... :crazyeye:

So... I'm a little hopeless now that the AI will never manage to play this mod properly.

Should I still release a test version? Abandon the idea of auto produced units and just use default production? But actually, I don't like this idea since the AI will not produce the variety of units I have in the mod.
 
Yes, AI is very poor.
That's why i only play pbem games and i think your tool would be a great thing for such games because you load the save each turn.
So you can imagine new things (graphics, etc...) every turn!
For example, you would be able to simulate seasons, you could hav different graphics for each player (civilization) etc...
 
Ran into the same issue with the AI on bldgs .. always wondered what would happen if other then some starting units all early units are produced by bldgs, if this would change the AI bld strat in the beginning. Don't know if can do or if gotta have at least 1 buildable unit..still might be something to try if doable. Means some of the bldgs need to be available at start to see what happens.
 
You need at least one buildable unit of the game crash.

I tried to give bonus to AI, a few units so it can actually build some from start.

Also, the settler producing building is now the palace instead of an additional building, so I'm sure the AI has it.
 
Is there a way of allowing the palace automatically place a barracks in every city?

I know the building has to be a wonder to place an improvement in a city, but could you ungrey that option in the editor somehow?
 
The point of barracks is veteran production and quick heal. If the AI does not value these features, why force them on it? Would you want to lose conscript/regular/veteran/elite system? I really like that part of civ.
 
Actually, this point doesn't work very well. If you want to have unit autoproduced by a building, the building will generate a "recruit" unit which is immobile, and then upgrade via a long upgrade path to the proper unit for your civilization and current era.
So with one building, you can get as many as 8 eras x 12 civilization = almost one hundred units (and it will increase as I add new eras and civilizations).
But for this to work, you need to be able to upgrade the recruit immediately after it has been generated, and so add the "veteran" flag to every unit producing building.
 
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