Stonehenge often the only viable approach

[Adjuvant]

Who does stonehedge on higher level lol

I do sometimes. warrior>worker>stonehenge>settler>settler>archer with pottery>calendar>archery. Admittedly works better with plantation luxuries on plains tiles.

Or only one settler if liberty since you get a free one.

 

[omnishakira]

Yes ofc you can do it for fun but I doubt its your main build or your ' serious build '

Not sure what you're talking about I've only missed Stonehenge 1 time so far on immortal and I've played at least 10 games where I built it and several more where I could have. Even on deity I'm sure the chance of getting it is higher then 50/50.

I assumed diety

 

[Adjuvant]

I don't have a main build or a serious build. It's all for fun and I have to really mess about to lose because I'm competitive. To me it's about what I'm given when the map "draws". I always try.

edit:Today I played immortal large earth with Harun and the game started me somewhere north of Yakutsk. I had 2 deer and a fur, but I had a river which was nice. I pushed hard for religion, ended with aurora, founded religion second, and my islam was down in africa by the time I explored there with my admiral from commerce. I won spaceship, but of course it's easiest, but it was very close. I know it's not a stonehenge story, but I'm illustrating "winging it", which I always do.

 

[stii]

Yes ofc you can do it for fun but I doubt its your main build or your ' serious build '




I assumed diety

I mean this is kind of the point of this thread. There are already few people who can beat diety, doing it without a religion makes it harder still.

 

[Adjuvant]

There are Deity success stories, but no one "does it every time" unless they "stack the deck somehow" every time. Even with a semi-isolated start there's still alot of luck involved. I "have" but I don't like it.

The problem is, playing seriously, I don't lose to immortal, and it becomes "going through motions". I absolutely prefer playing emperor and "stacking the deck against me" on a shuffle map with random civ and trying my best with what I'm given. At least then there are sparks of tactical fun where I can try new things.

 

[KillingMeSoftly]

If it's an Immortal+ issue... then what is really the issue, here? Immortal and Deity are supposed to be the most difficult settings. They are supposed to challenge your ability every time you play it. If you could always get an early religion and the best picks, then I don't think Immortal and Deity are hard enough. Constantly rerolling for the ideal start only cheats the difficulty to make it easier.

Founding a religion or not doesn't make or break the game. I've had several playthroughs where I didn't bother to found a religion at all and simply let it come to me. Sometimes I even did better in these games since I didn't need to focus so many resources on religion and didn't have to go Piety.

 

[slobberinbear]

If it's an Immortal+ issue... then what is really the issue, here? Immortal and Deity are supposed to be the most difficult settings. They are supposed to challenge your ability every time you play it. If you could always get an early religion and the best picks, then I don't think Immortal and Deity are hard enough. Constantly rerolling for the ideal start only cheats the difficulty to make it easier.

Founding a religion or not doesn't make or break the game. I've had several playthroughs where I didn't bother to found a religion at all and simply let it come to me. Sometimes I even did better in these games since I didn't need to focus so many resources on religion and didn't have to go Piety.

Well said.

Now, I like to get a pantheon and have a religion. My typical non-faith civ build order when I want a pantheon is:

Scout-Scout-Shrine

With enough scouting units, depending on the map, I can usually get a culture ruin, find a faith-based natural wonder, or meet a religious CS. The culture ruin helps me offset the fact that I am not taking a monument for awhile. If the pantheons are going fast and I am afraid of being left in the dust, I will pull out all the stops (e.g., sell everything to get gold to ally with a religious CS, buy a settler and drop him on a faith-based natural wonder, etc.).

This is usually sufficient on Emperor to get a Pantheon. This in turn can generate more faith points so you can actually found a religion.

If I was playing on Immortal, which I rarely do, I would go into the game assuming I was not going to get a religion.

 

[Dtekkar]

I understand the frustration of the OP though because it's mine. He wants to pick up on the difficulty he left off on - that still challenges him - before the expansion (for him it sounds like immortal+) and still be able play around with all the new religion stuff. And yeah, it's pretty crap that founding a religion is not only potentially impossible on some spawns, but pretty much a bad idea in most any case on deity.

 

[Muskie]

I've found huts where it was prophasized a great prophet was coming, of course I may have already had either a religion or a pantheon at this point. I play small maps and going form the Celts to the Dutch I had to rejigger as I missed out on a religion. Playing as the Celts you get used to have the faith advantage. With no faith advantage you can't build your optimal religion either.

I don't use the Piety social policies much, or at all in G&K yet, but which Civ you have makes a big deal. I agree that if you want to guarantee an early religion, building Stone Henge is a wise move.

 

[LostInTime]

Yeah, you need Stonehenge to get religion at all which is kinda stupid.

There need to be temples available sooner, or some social policy to get it.

And some pantheons are ridiculously broken while others are worthless, faith from all desert? Yes please, thank for that flood plain start, I'm now swimming in faith. 30% range damage? WTH...

But a patch should hopefully tweak most of this stuff.

 

[Tachii]

I often go for Stonehenge on Immortal, unless my early production is really I skip it and take Pyramids instead.

It definitely isn't the end of the world if you fail to have a religion though. I personally just do it because I love the idea of founding my own religion, but it would be really cool if you actually get their founder abilities if you take over the holy city.

 

[teakbois]

just won my first immortal game. I went in with no plan, got the incas and noticed a good spot for second city in between a mountain and river with 6 spots for terrace farms. Decided Id try for a two city science victory. Figured I wouldnt even bother with religion due to it probably being difficult for two cities, but wanted some extra food for fast growth so switched to archery and built ToA instead (stole a CS's worker to not fall too far behind).

Noticed when HS became available that there were still 3 open religion slots so figured why not, and went for it. And got it. So on immortal, without initially trying, I still got a religion. Yes, I got lucky that other civs didnt prioritize, but the great thing about Civ is its different every time.

Turns out the religion didnt even matter much, as I took it mainly for defense (holy defender or w/e its called) and only got attacked once since founding the religion. More randomness.

I think the time you absolutely want religion the most is a desert start. Because you can pump out tons of faith (desert folklore) for little effort to get your religion spread early, and get large amounts of faith to buy great people with.

 

[teakbois]

And again, on Immortal...didnt try for religion, ended up building HS for a late religion. Was the last religion on a 16 civ map though, so boy did I get the bottom of the barrel choices.

 

[Greasy Dave]

At Deity I've never really had a problem with religion. Maybe I've been lucky. BUt I've always had a start where a second city can be placed with access to four desert or jungle tiles. Or stone, or incense etc. I buy or chop a shrine in my two cities. Get scouts out to find the religious cs's - there's normally two (And on a pangea map, they're easy to find), and then choose the pantheon that gives + faith depending on the resource or tiles I'm settled near.

By the time I get my pantheon I try and get a task completed for the religious cs. Or depending on how my money is, and what I'm rush buying and how much is left over, occasionally throw 550 gold at them.

I've played four or five deity starts. And only built stone henge once. All the other times bar one, I was able to get a religion. Sometimes it's the last religion and my choice is poor. Sometimes it's the second and the choice is great. It's luck related depending on start location and other cvis. But I kind of like how it averages out.

It definitely doesn't require stone henge. (though it helps).
At immortal it's even easier. Sorry....I don't mean that patronisingly. But if you're playing immortal and not getting a religion, have a rethink of your tactics and strategy and pantheon choices.

TBH, IMV, a faith + pantheon wins everytime over all the others. High faith is a great benefit in the early to mid game (more missionaries to spread your faith, or HW, and free units etc). Much more beneficial IMV than the other pantheons.

 

[Tubbilicious]

I agree that Stonehenge is necessary at the higher difficulty levels (I have in mind on Deity since it's what I play). Whether this is a problem, since it might be isolated to such difficulties, I couldn't say. What I can say as of yesterday is that the earliest I have received a religion is third (about ten turns short of second on marathon). In doing this, I had a shrine, Stonehenge, and an allied religious city state; Normally I'd guess that meant I had the most faith bar the two major faith generating civs (Celts/Ethiopia), but I know that one of the Civs to found before me was Arabia - I'm guessing desert folklore, which seems OP.

 

[Dtekkar]

By Civ:
*Greece - Ally 2 Religious City States.
*Songhai - Liberty & Piety settlers & shrine/MPMs
Atilla - N/A
*Caesar - Liberty/Piety shrine/temple spam with +25% hammers
Bismarck - N/A
*Boudicca - Will always get early pantheon and early-ish religion too.
*Catherine - Trade a couple 8x horse tiles to ally a Religious CS.
Persia - N/A
Dido - N/A
Elizabeth - N/A
Gandhi - N/A
Khan - Take a CS with a faith natural wonder with Composite Bows.
*Gustavus - GGeneral gift to Religious CS. War with composites or Honor policy.
*Haile Selassie - Early panth, Early/Mid religion everytime.
Bluetooth - N/A
*Harun al-Rashid - Spawns in desert often. Desert faith pantheon will get you there most of the time.
Hiawatha - Spawns in forest often. Chop in a stonehenge.
Isabella - If you find a natural wonder first, buy 1-2x CS ally or 2-4 shrines with the money. If it is great barrier reef or skilldorato, laugh at all other players' misfortune.
Kamehameha - You will get a ton of goodie huts island hopping before everyone else.
Theresa - N/A
Monte - N/A
*Nappy - Culture bonus means he can Liberty 4shrine fast so 1 CS quest or some extra sold luxes will often be enough to get there.
Nebuchadnezzar - Disregard Religion Acquire Science.
Oda nobunaga - Disregard Religion Acquire territory.
*Pacal - Early/Mid Pantheon, Early/Mid Religion. Great Engineer the Hagia Sophia or Great mosque and dominate.
*Ramesses - Exceptional Liberty/Piety ICS, +2 happy per city, no maintenance on temples.
*Ramkhamhaeng - +50% faith from Religious CS means one'll do ya most of the time. Quest or sell luxes.
Sejong - N/A
Suleiman - N/A
Theodora - N/A (Yeah, this is a tough one to watch the last religion slot close on. This civ should probably get something to aid the initial acquisition, if it is meant to be the big slow religion maybe just guarantee Theodora 1 religion slot per game as part of her UB)
Washington - Will traditionally get a ton of goodie huts from the sight bonus and the luxury tiles will be cheaper during those crucial first 50 turns, extending your bankroll somewhat.
*William - You'll have a ton of money to ally up.
Wu Zetian - N/A

13 Civs have natural advantages that make religion deity-viable, about 40%.

Non-UB based methods that reliably generate a religion:
-Desert faith and 4-7 workable desert tiles. Relevant maybe 10-20% of the time.
-Stone circles pantheon + 2-4 quarries. Relevant maybe 15% of the time
-Religious CS quests, especially find the lands of X, kill a Barb hut, find a natural wonder, denounce a neighbor you were going to murder with composite bows anyway, etc. Relevant maybe 25-35% of the time.
-Settling a faith natural wonder. Maybe 10% of the time
-Popping a phrophetic goodie hut. 10%-ish.
-Having civs spawn that don't focus on religion, allowing you to limp into the religion game with a couple shrines in the renaissance. Or if another religious civ enhanced early and locked your pantheon in as one of the religions. 10%-15% of the time you'll get one of these.

So yeah, no guarantees unless you take a faith civ. But it's definitely doable.

 

[HottiePippen]

Plus, as soon as BNW comes out, piety will be available as your opening policy tree. So that should make it much easier to commit to getting a religion.

 

[Bandersnatching]

Wonders are luckbased and thus not a valid strategy. You could invest in scouts in a hope to find some religious CS/wonder. Those CS might give you a pantheon quickly, and if you can invest in them somehow it can help alot. But those are a bit too situational to really depend on.

Social policies are the way to go imo.

Meh, I wouldn't say entirely luck-based. At least, certain ones aren't. I have pretty consistently gotten Stonehenge on Immortal, even when Egypt is in the game and doing his usual thing.
Stonehenge is definitely the surest way for me to found a religion unless I am Celts/Ethiopia/Maya. You can't count on ruins, I never have the gold to ally Religious city-states (and though in some games I've allied through a lucky combination of quests, that happens more rarely for Religious than for other types - probably just randomness).

You could probably pretty effectively get a good religious start by going:
Pottery - Calendar - Mining
Liberty - Worker policy - production policy - free settler
build monument - worker - shrine - switch to Stonehenge, finish shrine later
Settle second city (after Stonehenge, yeah?) - build shrine in it immediately
Get your workers to chop forests and build farms and mines, starve your populace if necessary to keep at max production. The biggest problem with this is that you need to buy warriors for defense early and won't be scouting very effectively.
Happiness won't be too much of a problem with multiple workers, two lux techs and generally low population.

 

[Nefelia]

Have you ever tried going for a + faith pantheon ?
Depending on the situation, that can really help (had desert folklore yesterday as Arabia and it was crazy) - of course, you're missing out on + or + culture that way, but still . . .

In the case that no good + faith pantheon is left, I - of course - completely agree with your assessment.

In my limited experience, I consider the +faith pantheons to be superior for the long term. In my latest game, I chose the ability to build pagodas and mosques as my religious traits. Having each city eventually produce +5 faith, +4 culture, and +3 happiness as a result is golden. Several city states have the ongoing quests to collect the most faith or culture in a given time, and I am winning them all with very little effort due to the auto-building pagodas and mosques.