Stranding the Dutch

[Goldflash]

So, my privateers are off privateering when I spot a large (10 ships or more) flotilla of Dutch East Indiamen heading towards my continent. Sure enough, a turn or two later I see them inside my cultural borders at the relatively unprotected southern end of my continent. Much to my surprise, Sneaky 'ole Willem declares war on me and wave after wave of nothing emerges from the holds of his Indiamen. It turns out when he declared war on me he violated the OB Agreement we had. While the Indiamen themselves were immune from declare war bump out, the troops inside were not and they found themselves stranded on a tiny one tile island several squares away from my coast. I have obsevered said island for several turns now, and it seems the Dutch have made no attempt to pick up the 19 plus stack of units. While this saved my bacon, I am perplexed. Why did Willem wait until his ships were inside my borders to attack? And, since they were carrying units, shouldn't the Indiamen have moved with them?

 

[kazapp]

Sounds like a bug.

Do you have a savefile so we can confirm?

 

[alexman]

In this case a save would indeed be very useful.

 

[MrCynical]

It was predicted even before the game was released that a ship that could carry troops, and ignore closed borders was going to cause problems. Since as far as I can tell the AI declares war by directly attacking a unit or by violating borders, the AI won't declare properly in this case. Similarly the AI is inept at retrieving military from islands where they have nothing to do. Usually once the ships have left any military left behind is marooned for the whole game.

This is just one of a number of potential problems with the Dutch UU. It really shouldn't be able to enter closed borders.

 

[dzcoyle]

That is odd. But couldn't it work something like this: the East Indiaman fleet enters foreign borders of a country that the Dutch do not have OB with, then they can declare war by moving the units from the ships onto enemy territory, or directly attack a city if amphibious. Would this work? It would mean that the Dutch UU is useful for positioning troops to attack enemy territory without having to declare war first and then position the ships for unit landing, when there is no OB agreement.

 

[Thalatta]

That's awesome. I'm pretty sure it's not a bug as normal units teleport out of borders but Caravels stay put. I've never had anything in the Caravels when making a wardec, but I'd assume that their units would also teleport.

 

[alexman]

But couldn't it work something like this: the East Indiaman fleet enters foreign borders of a country that the Dutch do not have OB with, then they can declare war by moving the units from the ships onto enemy territory, or directly attack a city if amphibious.

This is how it works now, but the AI seems to have problems with it. It would be much easier for us to investigate why with a save.

 

[dzcoyle]

Ah yeah I see, well that's another thing for fraxis to fix in the next patch

 

[MrCynical]

This is how it works now, but the AI seems to have problems with it. It would be much easier for us to investigate why with a save.

But isn't that going to recreate the old Right of passage exploit from Civ 3 that was specifically removed for Civ 4?

 

[kazapp]

This is just one of a number of potential problems with the Dutch UU. It really shouldn't be able to enter closed borders.

That would be a huge nerf.

Make it unable to enter closed borders if loaded with units that wouldn't themselves be able to enter closed borders, sure, but it should still retain its Caravel-but-beefier traits otherwise.

 

[MrCynical]

That would be a huge nerf.

Make it unable to enter closed borders if loaded with units that wouldn't themselves be able to enter closed borders, sure, but it should still retain its Caravel-but-beefier traits otherwise.

Not so much a nerf as removing an exploit. The above suggestion may not be that easy to implement - I see additional bugs popping up with different border behavious for unloaded/loaded ships. A stronger galleon is already a decent UU in its own right. Especially given the Dutch already have a ludicrously overpowered UB, and the Financial trait, they don't need a strong, let alone a potentially broken UU.