Strategic Resources and game play geography

[jtdog]

Should I assume that part of the challange of the game is that I should always assume that my starting location is going to be geographically challenged and far from the important strategic resources?

I have rerun a few games and it seems once the game starts the strategic resources will first appear (after the needed science) in the same spot. So the location is pre-determined at the outset of the game. Any disagreement?

My last game at Monarch level - I had an average size geography under control in which I had 1 of 36 key (mid-game) strategic resources (Saltpeter, Coal, Rubber, Oil) and that rubber was next to a city that Egypt had settled early in the game and seemed a reach so far from their capital, but I had defeated in battle centuries beofre the rubber was visible. This situation does not seem that uncommon when I reflect on other games (i.e. if I hadn't expanded so quickly the resources would not be mine becuase they were so far from my capital - your game starting point)

Does the strategic resource situation get more difficult at the higher difficulty levels, therefore just an additional challenge?

This seems to force a contrary strategy to the C-X-X-C type start. In a regents game I had several C-X-X-X-X-X-X-C situations just to have a needed resource.

 

[TheOverseer714]

They appear at random when the world is generated, no bias for or against the player. The AI knows where they are even before the tech becomes available, and settles accordingly. You can use this to your advantage, i.e. a desert village 30 tiles from the nearest border of the AI in question will probably have Oil or Saltpeter, a tundra village Oil or Uranium. There are certain things that can tip you off.

 

[darski]

This seems to force a contrary strategy to the C-X-X-C type start. In a regents game I had several C-X-X-X-X-X-X-C situations just to have a needed resource.

There is nothing wrong with building your CxxxxxxC cities and then backfilling. I read an article on that strategy (here) years ago and I use it all the time.

 

[undertoad]

Interesting thread; I wasn't aware of what the Overseer says about the AI knowing where everything is, long before they understand what it's for!

I'm a big fan of what I think is called OCP (CxxxxC or wider), but often modify this to leave larger gaps for geostrategic reasons (block another civ's expansion, control a land-bridge), or for resource reasons, especially that early crucial Horses or Iron. Sometimes a colony (i.e. a "city" that uses up a Worker, provides no production, no defense bonus, and needs a defensive garrison) is the only way to secure resources.

 

[darski]

You can use the AI knowledge to your advantage both in regards to resources and to your troop placement.

 

[Donny Brook]

It's been my experience that the more food and luxury bonuses you have near your core, the fewer/farther afield the strategic resources are. Things like tobacco and sugar aren't really that useful, so if you have lots of those, you may be handicapped in finding the important stuff. Cows, wheat and game are well worth having in your core as they are a tremendous asset for growth.

 

[CommandoBob]

I have rerun a few games and it seems once the game starts the strategic resources will first appear (after the needed science) in the same spot.

If by 'rerun' you mean you are playing from the same start then, yes, what you say is true. The map hasn't changed any. New map means new resource allocation; new starting locations also.

Or did I miss something in the opening post?

 

[jtdog]

Great responses.
Overseer714 - your response was definitely not what I was expecting. Given it was also supported by Darski as well, I'll assume it is true. This certainly will give me a different perspective of what judgments I make when I see other CIVs settling certain areas. Very insightful.

CommandoBob - you understood correctly - just when I go back to 3950BC with the same map and options, the resources seem to appear in the same location each time.

Undertoad - I used colonies more often in my lower level games, but I'm finding at my current level, Monarch, that the other CIVs are so aggressive with their settling it would seem they put the colony in jeopardy. Roads get cutoff by the new cities, military aggression or possible city expansion across the colony. Although I have yet to experience a loss of a colony via another CIV cultural expansion (to date I've usually had a battle over the resource first). Has anyone observed if a CIVs cultural expansion will modify around another CIVs colony or if it just takes it over and the colony is lost?

General - the settling further out and backfilling with cities has become my strategy so often lately (because of strategic resource location), that it made me pose the questions on this thread. I will need to go back and review and run a tabulation of strategic resource advantaged and disadvantaged starting positions vs. the other CIVs based (a) early resources -iron & horses; and (b) mid resources - saltpeter, coal, rubber, oil (which I find the key to winning the whole game assuming you survive thru (a).
It would be interesting if others could share some examples - (i.e. Warlord game - of the 36 mid-level strategic resources - 5 were located within a reasonable settling area for me which placed me 5th out of 8.)

 

[TheOverseer714]

Colonies disappear when any cultural borders expand around it. This can also be useful, in that building a colony roads/rails that tile instantly. I will sacrifice a worker to get a colony on Gems especially, since roading a mountain takes an awful lot of turns for a single worker. Same goes for Iron on a mountain.

 

[darski]

I will sacrifice a worker to get a colony on Gems especially, since roading a mountain takes an awful lot of turns for a single worker. Same goes for Iron on a mountain.

This sounds like a good idea but it is usually early in a game when you find your iron. I would hate to lose a worker at that stage. but the time gained in sword production could make it worth while.

 

[iambenben]

you can cheat like me, make a map on civ3 edit and put loads of resources near a start position which you choose for the civ you use

 

[timerover51]

I spent some time generating maps on the editor of various sizes, and have some general conclusions about resources.

You will normally have about the same number of strategic resources of each type as you have civilzations, plus or minus one or two.

Luxuries will normally be clustered, with several of the same type in close proximity. As a result, you will likely have no more than one or two luxuries close to any given civilization. Tobacco normally is clustered like a luxury even though it is not.

On archipelago maps, there is a high likelyhood that some of the strategic resources are going to be on small islands.

Not only the AI but also the barbarians know where the resources are, as I have had barbarians from up to 15 tiles home in on my colonies and sack them.

The random number generator seems to produce a lot of oasis on any given map. As a result, I have boosted significantly the yield of oasis to take advantage of this fact.

When in doubt about resource location, save the first turn and do not touch the save. Play the game for a while to locate the basic first resources, iron and horses. If distant, adjust your strategy accordingly, and go back to your save.

Lastly, if you are tired of getting the short end of the stick on resources, use the editor and load them up. Or in my case, load them up and also make them much more beneficial in terms of yield. Boosting the production of coast squares also balances out a lot of resource problems.

 

[capnvonbaron]

On that topic...

Games seem to be extremely random on what strategic resources they let me keep and which are "exhausted" in very few turns. I've been screwed by resource "exhaustion" more times than I like to think about... I cannot reiterate how annoying it is when I have iron (or oil... or coal... ) pop up, I build a road to it, and it disappears before I can even get a half-dozen units out of it, especially when its the only one within my borders

Also, for whatever reason I don't think rubber has ever exhausted on me... and horses never for sure.

 

[capnvonbaron]

They appear at random when the world is generated, no bias for or against the player. The AI knows where they are even before the tech becomes available, and settles accordingly. You can use this to your advantage, i.e. a desert village 30 tiles from the nearest border of the AI in question will probably have Oil or Saltpeter, a tundra village Oil or Uranium. There are certain things that can tip you off.

I like it when they plop a city down far from their cultural hub or close to my borders. They might as well have given me a free city

 

[Sweetchuck]

I know that there is a common thought here that the AI knows where the resources are, and while I've been a bit drama-queenish about the AI cheating - I don't think the AI targets unknown resources. I just haven't seen it consistently.

Yeah, they have cities that resources appear when they are researched - but so do I. Can't tell you how many times I've roaded a tile and during the turn when I've researched a resource - it appears on that same tile I've roaded

I have been told that I suffer from cognitive error, though.

I do agree with another post here that the AI will settle way out of their core - right up against you, though I think that's the programming of the AI, to be aggressive and instigating. I also try to move my settlers one tile at a turn and I don't point them to the spot I want - and I've found that, by doing that - an AI civ will (somehow, mysteriously) have a settler nearby when I'm ready to settle.

 

[anaxagoras]

I know that there is a common thought here that the AI knows where the resources are, and while I've been a bit drama-queenish about the AI cheating - I don't think the AI targets unknown resources. I just haven't seen it consistently.

I am convinced that it does, actually. Good point is a game I'm playing now where I am beating up on the French. When I ask for peace, they will happily give me three of their cities at once, including two that are size 2. (I'm whoopin' on 'em pretty good. ) However, when I ask for a particular one of their cities which is just size 1, they won't make the deal even if it that is the only thing in the peace agreement.

There is absolutely nothing remarkable about the town. It is not productive, not large, has no wonders built or in progress, and includes no visible bonus tiles of any kind. But it is in a desert, and neither of us knows gunpowder, yet.

I'll bet dollars to donuts that when I do learn gunpowder, there will be saltpeter at that city site. (I'm betting it is saltpeter, not oil, because France values it so highly and saltpeter is the key to their UU.)

I'll keep you posted, but I will be very much surprised if there isn't a resource there. I plan to make peace shortly to move to another front and do some pointy-stick research. I want peace soon so that when I do beat gunpowder out of my other neighbor, I'll be past the 20-turn limit and able to renew the attack without losing my reputation.

 

[Padma]

The developers said, years ago, that the AI knows the entire map, including the location of all units, and the location of all pre-placed (i.e., placed by the map generation routines) resources. That is why they will head for that tundra spot on the far side of your empire - they know there's Oil there!

Of course, no one knows where disappeared resources will reappear. That depends on the condition of the map at the time it reappears.

As for resource exhaustion, there are settings in the editor for each strategic resource. You can modify them to eliminate exhaustion, or at least change the rate. Also, some resources, like horses, never exhaust.

Finally, the addition of new non-strategic resources in Conquests/Complete upset the delicate balance of resource location. During map generation, certain tiles get flagged to be resource-holders. Later in the generation phase the resources are allocated to the tiles, depending on the tile types. The new resources compete with the Strategic Resources for the same number of tiles, which means that those Strategic Resources not only seem, but are fewer and farther between.

 

[chrisman1]

if you really want to know where resources will be, just save your game as "multi" (without the "s) and when you load that game the entire map will be revealed. This at least works for vanilla, not sure about PTW and C3C.

 

[Padma]

It only works for a specific patch level of Vanilla. It was fixed in patch 1.17, I think.

 

[Glassfan]

I allways assumed that the resources being spread out was consistant with the scoring philosophy. Your kingdom has to grow because techs increase in science cost. The size of your kingdom is the principle scoring technique. You know that when coal or rubber show up, it'll be just beyond your borders. So you constantly expand at every opportunity. More cities means more units supported, more cash, more beakers. Also, like chess players of old, one of the attractions of Civilization is its complexity. I enjoy the game best when a move takes a half hour.