strategy for ancient start

[KM]

I know there has been some strategic posts here for MP but not as many as one would hink.

-Since CIV is a strategic game I like to think about how you start the game a bit like different openings in chess. In CIV it is a bit like Rock-paper-scissors. If you do one particular opening that opening can be countered by… and if you do… it can be beaten by doing….

I am most familiar with ancient openings since that’s what I ve played most. N a previous post I discussed a Egypt opening regarding the policy picking. This time the strategy do work with Egypt but almost with any civ (all thought Egypt is a bit quicker)

The GL + HG combo.
Pro’s. Strong middle ages and also a good ground for late game. Possibility of fast crossbows or almost any fast middle ages UU especially if combining with picking GS from liberty finisher.

Con’s. weak military in the very early stages of the game.

Countered by: Early pressure with classical iron swordrush.

How it works.
Build the following in capital. Monument (if good starting position, scout) grannery.
Policy Liberty, free settler, free worker.

Place second city for strong production, on hill working hill. If possible on a mining resource.

In that city build as many worriors as you can.

Teach pottery, writing. Build Great Library.

While building the great library tech animal husbandry, archery, the wheel.

When the GL finish get mathematics. Start building the hanging gardens.

Tech for Iron working.

Improve iron, upgrade worriors, When HG finish start make settlers in capital. ( You can also alter this by getting a settler even if Hg is not finished to time it with the finishing of researching IW and then go place it on IW for a bit faster swords
.
You can have Hanging gardens by turn 36-37 ish.
After that your capital can work only production tiles and still grow and will get a huge production.

 

[KiffeLesBiffles]

It is a wonders rush strat. It is nice for isolated start. But indeed, very weak against rusher.

How it works.
Build the following in capital. Monument (if good starting position, scout) grannery.
Policy Liberty, free settler, free worker.

I would do free worker first to cut forest to build GL quicker. You will have your free settler when you finish GL.

When HG finish start make settlers in capital

It is not optimal to build HG before settler. I know you want to have HG fast, but HG will be useless while you build settlers in your caps (10-12 turns).

And I don't like HG much, because you need lot of happiness to fuel it.

If you want to fully used HG, you need a lot of hills :
You have 10 free food from HG, 2 free from city, 2 from granary, 2 from river wheel =
8 free feed citizen = you need 8 hills to have full used ! That's a lot !

 

[KM]

I ve experimented a bit and you have no use for free worker for GL before free settler. the reason is that if the other player is also going for GL I recommend to skip the GL all thought having liberty researched and go for IW and pump out settlers to rush. Also if you get mining insted of archery, the wheel and animal husbandry and dont get the second city up very fast you will not have the techs needed to bulb mathematics when GL finish. You must skip worker, get a settler and only do the techs needed for mathematics to be able to bulb it right away.

I do agree that you have plenty of time for HG so it might be good to get 2 settlers out before starting the HG.

The HG is very good even if you dont got happines for growth. On scirmish you will have one or two iron tiles + optimally 1- hills more. With HG you can work them all. Basicly getting a huge producction boost, not a huge growth boost.

 

[RoBoSMASH]

I have been winning a lot with this build order in MP FFA lately. I think it is much more balanced of an opening than going all in on wonders.

Build Order: Scout, Monument, Granary, GL, Warrior, Settler, Settler (2nd city builds warrior first for iron upgrade, third settler as necessary for iron).
Tech Order: Pottery, Writing, Mining, Bronze Working, Iron Working/Philosophy
Policy: Take Free Worker First

Although the worker comes a bit early to use, it is only by 3-6 turns (depending on game speed). That 3rd policy though takes much longer to get unless you are playing as France. Once you hit 3 pop in your cap, and the granary is up, you can switch to production. Usually you will get mining shortly thereafter and chop away. I am able to beat players to the GL 75% of the time.

Now for the tech side, with this opening you are shooting to take either Philosophy or Iron Working. I usually pick one to hard tech while building the GL and use the scientist to bulb the other.

In MP the biggest mistake I have been seeing players make is trying to go for these wonder/tech rushes that, while great in SP, leave you FAR too vulnerable early game in MP. You need to be prepared to defend that second/third city which, if you go GL, HG you will absolutely be unable to do. I'll take the GL/IW rush any day.

IMO, HG is great and all, but I prefer to go wide for production when luxury resources allow. HG tends to put an over-importance on your cap for overall production.

 

[KM]

Robomash: i hink you misred my post. This is not a strategy to beat all strategies. This is one of many openings. It is very situational and just an example of what you can do. If you dont have a strong starting position, If you got enemies close, If there are many players in the game. If several othe players try to get GL too etc tec it is not a good opening. It is all about adaption. This is just one thing you can do. just as going for example stright to IW, building monument, scout, worker, settler, settler, settler settler settler settler in capital and in satelites, worrior worrior worrior worrior, then sword sword sword. Is one way to go.

Or like you pointed out, a balnaced build where you are looing for a balnced good growth over time is one way to go.

There is also the longsword bulb rush, or the crossbow rush etc etc....

Just one out of many things you can do...

 

[RoBoSMASH]

Robomash: i hink you misred my post. This is not a strategy to beat all strategies. This is one of many openings. It is very situational and just an example of what you can do. If you dont have a strong starting position, If you got enemies close, If there are many players in the game. If several othe players try to get GL too etc tec it is not a good opening. It is all about adaption. This is just one thing you can do. just as going for example stright to IW, building monument, scout, worker, settler, settler, settler settler settler settler in capital and in satelites, worrior worrior worrior worrior, then sword sword sword. Is one way to go.

Or like you pointed out, a balnaced build where you are looing for a balnced good growth over time is one way to go.

There is also the longsword bulb rush, or the crossbow rush etc etc....

Just one out of many things you can do...

We ARE discussing MP strategy and tactics so while I AM critiquing this particular opening, I also am not saying that ANY strategy (mine or yours) is the end all be all of openings . I think the advantages from a GL->HG do set you up well for the mid-game. However, it is my experience that building both immediately leave you too vulnerable. Certainly there are times when space, production output, and competitor attitudes allow you the luxury of immediately building both but I think that these times are more of an exception to what one would expect in a MP game.

My main concern with this PARTICULAR opening in MP is that it feels to me that GL and HG are the two most popular early wonders and most players are shooting for them (with Pyramids being almost tied with HG). There is a moderate chance you will miss at least one or both. You can usually recover from missing one if you have breathing room, but if you were to miss BOTH, you would be in a very tight situation.

In the interest of continuing the discussion, have you been able to get both up without difficulty? I would be concerned that, even if one got both GL and HG up in the cap that you wouldn't have enough units fielded and your high score would make you a VERY enticing target. Thoughts?

 

[KM]

I've won a duel against one of the top 10 on the duel ladder using this strategy. That good enough for u?

The big risk apart from getting rushed is not getting the GL. In a duel you will know quite well if you have a chance of getting it or not. Since you most probably are circulating the enemy capital with your warrior at the time. By terrain, size, social policies picked (and of, if he has writing or not) you will know if you have a shot at it.

Second with his tactic you will get first to mathematics (if you get the GL up). There is no faster way. And you will be the first to start building the HG. Only way you can get beaten to it is if some got a lot better terrain in the capital. But then if u got bad lands where your capital is then this is a really bad strategy.

edit:

In duel, I d say the big but only issue, and its huge issue, with this strategy, is that if your opponent manage to put you under early and heavy pressure you might die then and there and never even get to finish the HG.
Against rome, iraquies etc it s not good since they will most probably try to rush you. Against Germany thought I think its good, since if you dont take the GL yourself the opponent might to and get very early landsknechts. By taking the GL yourself you will delay them quite some time and that is worth a lot against germany.

In 2vs2 3vs3, its an even better strategy since your teammate (s) can focus on army while the one in the back will be the economic and tech monster to play supporting civ.

In cton its a big risk since probably won t have good intel on all your opponents and therefore dont know about your chances to get the GL first.

 

[Tabarnak]

We ARE discussing MP strategy and tactics so while I AM critiquing this particular opening, I also am not saying that ANY strategy (mine or yours) is the end all be all of openings . I think the advantages from a GL->HG do set you up well for the mid-game. However, it is my experience that building both immediately leave you too vulnerable. Certainly there are times when space, production output, and competitor attitudes allow you the luxury of immediately building both but I think that these times are more of an exception to what one would expect in a MP game.

My main concern with this PARTICULAR opening in MP is that it feels to me that GL and HG are the two most popular early wonders and most players are shooting for them (with Pyramids being almost tied with HG). There is a moderate chance you will miss at least one or both. You can usually recover from missing one if you have breathing room, but if you were to miss BOTH, you would be in a very tight situation.

In the interest of continuing the discussion, have you been able to get both up without difficulty? I would be concerned that, even if one got both GL and HG up in the cap that you wouldn't have enough units fielded and your high score would make you a VERY enticing target. Thoughts?

Funny because i made the GL-HG combo when we played last nite and i obviously made a big city with the help of wheat tiles and rivers around. When everyone quit around turn 120, Moscow had 19 with astonishing production. Built most wonders in there.

You can rush ironworking for turn 25 with the GL if you get a pretty decent capital. Then you can rush archers for 1-2 turns each after upgrading warriors.

Like KM said, it doesn't worth it if you get low production capital. You better expand early to overcome the lack of production.

 

[KM]

I also might ad that we did this in 2vs2 yesterday. Me and tony vs ardan and master mishi. Both teams mirroring civs, that is both had one player as france and one as rome. Tony was in the back with a good location for his capital and I was palying france in the front. What we did was me expanding and producing army while Tony did the GL HG combo. Tech wise we went for pottery writing, then got mining inbetween then the tech necessery to bulb mathematcs then we tok IW. In the end we simply had tony in the back with huge producction, huge tech and good economy. So I say if u can sntach the GL in a 2vs2 this is defenetly a very good strategy for ancient.

 

[anandus]

[..]the reason is that if the other player is also going for GL I recommend to skip the GL all[...]

Is there a way to see who is building the GL? (apart from the construction near an enemy city on the map).
I thought there wasn't?

 

[KiffeLesBiffles]

Is there a way to see who is building the GL? (apart from the construction near an enemy city on the map).
I thought there wasn't?

If the opponent tech writing first (alphabetisation appears), he will go for GL. You can see if he build a granary early as well. because while reserching writing, you want to do that.

So you can know if he rushing GL.

 

[anandus]

(alphabetisation appears)

Maybe a dumb question, but what do you mean by this?

 

[KM]

He probably means that if you look at demographics every turn. The oponents technology level will appear o be 0% until he techs writing. So if for example the opponent goes from 0% to 7% in demographics from one turn to the other you will knwo that was the turn he teched writing.

 

[KiffeLesBiffles]

Maybe a dumb question, but what do you mean by this?

Taux d'alphabétisation = literacy rate ! What, you don't speak french ?

Before you discoveri writing, literacy rate is at 0%. So you can know when your opponent discover writing.

 

[anandus]

Aaah, thanks!
That's smart, it never occured to me. Great tip!

 

[MasterMishi]

and look at crop yield to see if made a granary?

i tested GL HG with both free settler and free worker first and both work.

i also went gl hg settler pyramids settler and that was really strong

i prefer pot , writing, animal mining, archery wheel, bulb maths, bronze iron

you dont get iron until turn 40ish tho its risky

 

[MasterMishi]

even if you dont go for wonders: a popular opening is to go gran first grow to size 5 and then go settlers, tech animal, iron with a decsion to go worker or settler first. (mon gran settlers....)

the previous popular start would be mon, worker warrior settlers this gives worker early for iron and fastest iron rush. also worker can chop settlers if you got forest to remove

Ip layed a 3v3 where our front player had 4 warriors and gold but none of our team had iron hooked and he got rushed turn 35 ish 5 swords and died ( he went mon gran settlers, waited til turn 40 ish for free worker - too late!) i was iro and had iron 3 tiles away and poor goldl, gifted 2 mohawks but not enough and i was 5 turns away, player in rear also didnt have early worker. the player in front was mad saying we should have planted iron, but this is a moot point...

so any experience of getting rushed when trying early wonders or rushing them?

thoughts?

 

[KM]

Y... haha Had 3 games now doing this against good players in duel. They actually got me down to capital killing cities for me. Well last game Capital +1.

One I lost, then won the re match, then last one is unfinished but it looks like I m winning. So yeah. It s dangerous as hell against good players.

 

[KiffeLesBiffles]

even if you dont go for wonders: a popular opening is to go gran first grow to size 5 and then go settlers, tech animal, iron with a decsion to go worker or settler first. (mon gran settlers....)
thoughts?

I dont like this opening: monument->granary->settler. You can do a granary first when you want to do the GL or if you want to grow before doing settler. Because, the food is basically useless when you do settler, it is just a waste of time to do the granary. Much better to do a worker to mine hills: mine potential iron and improve settler building capacity.

Moreover, It is useless to grow before doing settler if you dont have enought pure production tiles (hills, horse on plains...) because building settler is all on prod and nothing else other tiles are useless.

 

[KM]

Y. Gran is to be able to work two hills get more producction. while making settlers u can un negative food and gran wont be of any help.

Gran start good for: GL and/or worker before free settler, growing say pop 5 (I disagree a tiny it with kiffle here sice if u got plenty of deer and wheet gran can really help u to reach pop 5-6 before second city if u get worker first) Growiing size 5 in capital has to be for a purpose however. I dont think you get more army faster that way then if you stay pop 3 and just focus on making more cities. But since u will be stuck for some time at the population you have when startig to spread out with more cities grwoing a bit taller in capital is good if you aim for some early wonder, it might not be the GL, but say you want hte pyramides, or early oracle for a fast liberty finisher to get HS. The thig is that if you do that you could aswell get the GL.

If u plan to stay size 3 and spit out settlers grannery start is of no help and it s better to do monument, worker insted of monument settler.

I guess a good exansive (sword city sprawl) start would be monument scout worker, settler settler settler....
and even cut down wood to speed up the settlers.

This will be quite the opposite start to the wonderrush abowe. Probably going for 7+ cities all making worriors + swords, and probably also be the opening that is the most dangerous to face for someone who wonderrush.