Strategy vs Exploits

[The Great Apple]

So reading through some of the posts made by people claiming to have beaten diety, I notice that there are quite a few similarities in the strategies they use. Many of these strategies are what I would consider to be exploits, although not all of them. I've just managed to lose my third Diety game in a row (managed to struggle my way to the Modern Era, only to find I have no oil/Aluminium before being stomped by Bismark).

For this reason I thought I'd poll the community to see what other people thought. Some of the options I don't consider to be exploits... but I've put them there as other people might! Are there any I've forgotten?

 

[mzprox]

other:

-taking lump sum for gold/turn, resources then declaring war on AI
-selling open border
-making research agreements then declare war (you get a free tech)
-making research agreement with small, "non-factor" civs, even gifting them the money they need-still much much cheaper to get a tech this way.
-accepting peace while the AI gives you all its cities
-farming xp with barbarians or with city states (the later has no xp limit)

 

[Infiltrator]

Marathon speed.

 

[H4run]

So reading through some of the posts made by people claiming to have beaten diety, I notice that there are quite a few similarities in the strategies they use. Many of these strategies are what I would consider to be exploits, although not all of them. I've just managed to lose my third Diety game in a row (managed to struggle my way to the Modern Era, only to find I have no oil/Aluminium before being stomped by Bismark).

For this reason I thought I'd poll the community to see what other people thought. Some of the options I don't consider to be exploits... but I've put them there as other people might! Are there any I've forgotten?

great post, i hope there will be many respond and action toward this post, i rely my hope to our hero : the modders (developer not really my hero right now ).

I have vote, but i want to take a note, im consider some of the game feature that can be use as exploit, but i do not hope it will be eliminate from the game, i hope then just removing thing that we consider as exploit, it will be far better if some-one could fix it.

1. Trading

Trading city can be a huge exploit in this game, because this great feature being add without any supportive add to cover the weak spot of this feature to be exploit by human player. I do like the add because :

- its historicaly exist :
ex : Hongkong being sold to English to cover debt
A barter between Dutch and Britain exchanging their puppet land wich is
Singapore and Bengkulu (Sumatera Island-now Indonesia)
etc

- It enrich the game strategy in commerce
- Expanding the commodity that possible to be trade
- and other thing

Thing that we can do to give savety belt for AI that can be use as protection and balance :

1. AI can set a peace agreement being add for 40 turn if AI player enter city trading with the player, so at least we cant declare war and recapture the city after we trade it to AI.

2. Set a reduction on happiness suffer penalty in annex city, because AI tend to be puppeting the city instead on actively take control (annex-ing) the city. Hence of the puppeting behavior, the city that already sold or capture to AI dont produce any military unit, it left unguard and weak to be exploit (mean retaken).

3. Give an international relation and trade trust huge penalty on breaking the trade term before the agreeable time expire. Both on AI and Player

4. Program the AI to have an ability or behavior on exploiting (back) the human player, like trading betrayal, or city barter, selling open border, depend on the AI charachter and military power also depend on relation to other human or AI.

---

2. No more Reloading

I hope there are reality mode, that player cant quit game without saving, no auto-save, and there only exist one save slot for one game.

3. Blocking the road and resource

I think the stack should be give more add, 2 unit per tile sound fair, or at least worker can enter AI military unit stack (in the time of peace), and worker can be gather 4 unit in one stack.

ok thats all for now

 

[Balkor]

I deffinately find the reloading stuff as exploiting, I like to try and recover if i mess up badly and so what if i loose in the end i still tried

 

[Abegweit]

I think a distinction needs to be made between exploits, cheats and easier modes.

Small marathon is simply an easier game. There is nothing wrong with playing it (although I can't what interest it could possibly have; I'd rather watch paint dry).

Taking advantage of the AI's hopeless trading or slingshotting an advanced tech is an exploit. Unlike playing easier conditions, it is using the game in a way that the devs never intended. Just don't boast about how you won the game on Dual Deity.

As for re-loading, the less said about that, the better. Suffice it to say that it's not an exploit.

 

[pi-r8]

I'd say that an exploit is something where you do something that takes advantage of holes in the AI to get ahead. For example, when you sell the AI a worthless city for thousands of gold, that's an exploit because it's obviously a bad deal for the AI. No human would be so dumb as to take that deal. It's not an exploit to use stuff that really is intended by the game rules, even if it's perhaps too powerful at the moment, like order + forbidden palace.

 

[H4run]

even if it's perhaps too powerful at the moment, like order + forbidden palace.

agree with that, even i dont rely enjoy on the happiness rule in the game, it consume lots of energy and focus that we suppose to allocate into more important stuff. Like Diplomacy, politic and the war itself. Im tired building circus and coloseum for my people each time i found a city.

 

[The Great Apple]

I suppose my definitions were a bit lose. What I was aiming for was things which, if somebody had said "I've beaten Diety", you would consider to be in some way invalidating of that success. It could be an expoit of the game mechanics, or simply of the AI. For example, I think picking your opponents' civs would somewhat invalidate a victory.

I find some of the results interesting. I, for example, consider reloading if I fail to notice, for example, that my automated movement settler is about to walk into a barb (but I would have if I was paying attention) to be perfectly fine. I suppose perhaps the poll wasn't clear though. I suppose things like AI movement blocking is also a bit of a scale. At one end there is sitting on a bottleneck in neutral terratory, and on the other end there is sitting on resources using open borders to stop them being improved. Quite different!

I've also had it in my mind that early worker stealing from city states was more exploitative than selling the AI "worthless" resources.

 

[alpaca]

I'd say that an exploit is something where you do something that takes advantage of holes in the AI to get ahead. For example, when you sell the AI a worthless city for thousands of gold, that's an exploit because it's obviously a bad deal for the AI. No human would be so dumb as to take that deal. It's not an exploit to use stuff that really is intended by the game rules, even if it's perhaps too powerful at the moment, like order + forbidden palace.

Order + FP decreasing unhappiness from occupied cities is a bug in my opinion

The question is: What's fun for you? If I abuse some stupid AI flukes to the extreme, for example, that's not a lot of fun. Sure, I can win on the highest difficulty by selling my luxuries to the AI for 300 gold and buying horsemen for it that can't be effectively countered on the field and the AI is too stupid to meet in its cities, but that's not exactly a sign of good strategy.

In a similar vein, I recently got a peace offer from Bismarck offering me > 12000 gold for peace, which he might have better invested in buying military units to swarm me with.

On the other hand, playing on the highest, and probably even the second highest, difficulty setting has always been about finding those parts of the AI and game mechanics that you can exploit. If you treat them fairly, the huge bonuses they get leave you no chance to win. In Civ4, these exploits were a lot harder to find and required a much better understanding of the game mechanics, that's the whole difference and the reason why most people weren't able to beat deity (including me because I didn't want to learn all those relation thresholds and bulbing orders because it felt more like work than fun)


Reloading is a ticklish issue. If it's just some small fluke because I didn't pay attention, like accidentally moving a worker close to a barb because he was selected at turn start, I think reloading is fine. If I make a tactical or strategical mistake that I could have avoided, it's not. If I didn't know a game rule, it is, and so on. I generally ask myself "would I feel bad if I reloaded this?" and if the answer is yes, I don't do it.

 

[Thunderbull]

i don't count marathon as exploit, it is just another option of game settings.
even more, i'm playing only marathon, as well as huge maps, no reloads, no blocking and other 'game' stuff - because this game can (and doing) grant to me a 'real civilization' feeling.

in terms of these feeliings i glad to see that most of my personal options are favs here, except of selling no-need resources - im noob, i dunno how to make it at all (sell such resources of course, not resources at all) and restarting - i jsut consider it as losing but i know my self and i know that i will not play unfunny scenario (for me is optimum to see availability to crate a ring or cities around capital).

 

[R3dKnight]

100% agreed on luxury item sale & cities. I know I'm guilty of it in Deity. But that's the only way I could remain competitive at all. I played Emperor and King difficulty without resorting to that and faced not much of a challenge.

I think in principle, the horrible exploit is probably the weirdest capitulation that AI offers, seemingly at random stages of war.

But the game is probably won by then and it's time to go back to main menu rather than enduring a long march to every single capital city to secure domination victory screen.

I think this is why people just try their hardest to win Deity, by hook or by crook, it's the only way to keep the game fun. At least that's the case for me, the standard build up empire play is so dull, I rather play Civ 4 for that.

As for marathon being realistic : Far from it. Some of the Civilization abilities are imbalanced for Marathon, their instant reward nature broke the low speed barrier Marathon was meant to provide. I could start with Bismark's barbarian conversion, or Napoleons instant +2 culture per city. But you get the idea.

 

[Abegweit]

On the other hand, playing on the highest, and probably even the second highest, difficulty setting has always been about finding those parts of the AI and game mechanics that you can exploit. If you treat them fairly, the huge bonuses they get leave you no chance to win. In Civ4, these exploits were a lot harder to find and required a much better understanding of the game mechanics, that's the whole difference and the reason why most people weren't able to beat deity (including me because I didn't want to learn all those relation thresholds and bulbing orders because it felt more like work than fun)

I don't think I could name a single mechanism in Civ4 that I would qualify as an exploit. I don't think I can name a feature that the AI didn't know how to use either (well, maybe espionage but it least it tries).

There were a few minor exploits at the very beginning of Civ4 but nothing like what we have in this game. There still are some in Civ3 (inter-turn nonsense) and plenty in Civ2 (fog-clicking). In this regard, like many other ways, Civ5 is far worse than Civ3 was. I had sorta hoped we had gotten past this kind of stuff.

 

[Infiltrator]

TBH I can't believe what I was hearing from some of the AI commentaries. I remember devs saying how AI has some options at hand and Deity always makes the best choice while lower AIs do some less effective ones.

So.. um.. when was parking your archers in front of my melee the best choice ever, Deity? Or having half of your empire composed of junk riverless grassland cities?

 

[alpaca]

I don't think I could name a single mechanism in Civ4 that I would qualify as an exploit. I don't think I can name a feature that the AI didn't know how to use either (well, maybe espionage but it least it tries).

There were a few minor exploits at the very beginning of Civ4 but nothing like what we have in this game. There still are some in Civ3 (inter-turn nonsense) and plenty in Civ2 (fog-clicking). In this regard, like many other ways, Civ5 is far worse than Civ3 was. I had sorta hoped we had gotten past this kind of stuff.

AI doesn't really draft, it doesn't whip as much as it should, it will always run into your territory with its stack where your own collateral damage units are waiting, it doesn't know how to bulb and will very often settle great persons, and so on.

As for exploits, bribing the AI into fighting your wars with techs, playing for modifiers where you know the AI will never attack you, bulbing techs and selling it to every AI at once, killing the AI's stack of doom with collateral damage, off the top of my head. I probably don't even know the better exploits because I rarely went above Emperor difficulty where I could play comfortably.

I agree they are a lot more subtle than the "hur, hur, the AI can't handle basic tactics so I'll bash all my opponents with five horsemen"

 

[Zelig]

Taking advantage of the AI's hopeless trading or slingshotting an advanced tech is an exploit.

Slingshotting to an advanced tech is an exploit?

 

[R3dKnight]

I found that weird too. I mean, to slingshot, you gotta have the proper foundation, you had to make sacrifices in terms of great person vs production tiles. Why is it an exploit when it's a matter of micromanaging your policy adoption, wonder builds and great person usage?

 

[pi-r8]

Order + FP decreasing unhappiness from occupied cities is a bug in my opinion

The question is: What's fun for you? If I abuse some stupid AI flukes to the extreme, for example, that's not a lot of fun. Sure, I can win on the highest difficulty by selling my luxuries to the AI for 300 gold and buying horsemen for it that can't be effectively countered on the field and the AI is too stupid to meet in its cities, but that's not exactly a sign of good strategy.

In a similar vein, I recently got a peace offer from Bismarck offering me > 12000 gold for peace, which he might have better invested in buying military units to swarm me with.

On the other hand, playing on the highest, and probably even the second highest, difficulty setting has always been about finding those parts of the AI and game mechanics that you can exploit. If you treat them fairly, the huge bonuses they get leave you no chance to win. In Civ4, these exploits were a lot harder to find and required a much better understanding of the game mechanics, that's the whole difference and the reason why most people weren't able to beat deity (including me because I didn't want to learn all those relation thresholds and bulbing orders because it felt more like work than fun)

Yeah I definitely agree the most important thing is just "whatever is fun". I'm trying to avoid using horsemen at all in my games now, not because I think they're an exploit, but because it's just not fun to win all my games the same way.

Playing deity on Civ4 was different though. I never really felt like I was winning by exploits no matter what I did. Well... I can think of a few tricks that might count as exploits but nothing major. Mostly it involved finding ways to use all the game mechanics for maximum advantage. It's not cheating at all to just combine all the rules as best you can, even if it's something the AI can't figure out how to do.

 

[IgnatiusTBarfat]

-making research agreements then declare war (you get a free tech)

This.

 

[Jediron]

As one of the few i have voted none of the above
There is so much wrong with this game, i won't call everything that is wrong with it "a exploit".
I call it at worthless game. It never should have sold in this state to begin with.
Harch? Maybe. But let me tell you this is the first time my verdict is so poor. And i played them all, 1,2,3,4 and everthing in between.

For years i am waiting for a better AI, more intelligent. Well, i think i have waited enough.
The AI is just as bad as back then with CIV 1 and thks to 1 UPT and the lesser militairy you are noticing it even more then. Add up all the other bits and pieces and there you have my opinion.