Streamers debating the new AGES in Civ 7!

I'm sorry that you think I was being dismissive but the thing you read as sarcastic was me actually trying to make a point. Though I understand in hindsight how what i wrote may be interpreted as trying to be dismissive and I apologize. The point is simply an extension of the question in the original comment that you quoted. Where are we drawing the line and why?

You're alluding to some metaphysical conception of "exploration" ex: exploration of sciences but by that logic why wouldn't the Modern Era be more deserving of the title "Age of Exploration"? What about the continents and peoples who didn't have scientific establishments? This period from 400-1600 is also defined by conquest and the establishment of empires. Why isn't the second age called the "Age of Empires"? Where is the line drawn when trying to define such wide periods global trends? This is the actual conversation being had and I'm sincerly not trying to dismiss you even when I poke holes in reasoning.
If you had the ability to name the period from 400-1600 in one word, what would you call it? It seems like "Exploration" is at least a middle ground name that does cover the crossings of the various Norse and Polynesians, to the discoveries of Portugal, Spain, and Ming China etc.
"Age of Empires" to me really doesn't work considering all the ancient Empires of Antiquity: Assyria, Neo-Babylonian, Macedonian, Achaemenid Persia, Rome, Carthage, Maurya, Qin/Han China just to name a few.
 
I think the gameplay purpose of 3 ages to prevent late game boredom, create narrative is one big "nothing to do with history" reason for the ages.

But another big "Definitely History" gameplay reason is that the ages will have different mechanics
This is important because Historically (both IRL and in people's understanding) certain things worked Very differently at different times.

In Civ 1-6 they had to come up with a Combat mechanic that
1. captured the feel of phalanxes pushing on each other
AND
2. captured the feel of bombers going through AA fire to hit a tank army

....and that's just the Combat mechanic, because they are going from the Stone Age to the Space Age, making interlocking systems that deal with such a wide variety is very complicated and gives very weird results.

Because the game is based in History, allowing certain mechanics to change/end/start for ALL players at a certain point is more than just a gameplay decision it helps the feeling of fitting history.

So no travelling across the ocean in the first age
No air travel in the second age
Riflemen are probably melee in the third age
etc.

Okay the thing that doesn't make sense about this argument is all of these differences could've (and have been achieved in past civilization titles) without needing to split the game into three seperate campaign and certainly without introducing Mario Kart rubberband mechanics that bring civilizations closer together technologically. That's not a decision to help the feeling of fitting history at all as last time I checked and the Spanish with knights had conquered an Aztec civilization that didn't even know Iron working.

You already needed to research technologies locked to certain eras in the game to travel the ocean, you already wouldn't be air traveling during " the Renaissance", Riflemen were late game units appropriate for when you were in that period... Changes in technology and eras could be seen and were already directly felt in the series. The devs decision to split the game in three and add crises and civ swapping was a decision with specific gameplay concerns in mind.
 
Okay the thing that doesn't make sense about this argument is all of these differences could've (and have been achieved in past civilization titles) without needing to split the game into three seperate campaign and certainly without introducing Mario Kart rubberband mechanics that bring civilizations closer together technologically. That's not a decision to help the feeling of fitting history at all as last time I checked and the Spanish with knights had conquered an Aztec civilization that didn't even know Iron working.

You already needed to research technologies locked to certain eras in the game to travel the ocean, you already wouldn't be air traveling during " the Renaissance", Riflemen were late game units appropriate for when you were in that period... Changes in technology and eras could be seen and were already directly felt in the series. The devs decision to split the game in three and add crises and civ swapping was a decision with specific gameplay concerns in mind.
The point of Separate mechanics being in (separate campaigns) means they don't have to interact
Spearman will never get attacked by a ocean going Battleship (something that happens in every civ from 1-6)
You won't have a Merchant Caravan trying to get resources from your Corporate Branch
You won't need to know how Modern Free Religion Policy interacts with a Pantheon

Now they could do those (for edge cases that would arise when people nuked a chariot so they could launch an interstellar craft in 1230 AD)
But that would make the rules of the mechanics more complicated

By saying.... before Anyone gets "X", everyone else gets/loses "Y" that makes
-Balancing simpler
-Mechanics simpler
-Immersion simpler

and it has the added side bonus (the main bonus) of allowing anti-snowball.... and because the anti-snowball mechanics are limited to specific periods you can tune them and not have them ruin the fun of snowballing. (you just reduce the longterm benefits)
 
If you had the ability to name the period from 400-1600 in one word, what would you call it?

I woudn't try split a time period of 400-1600 into one word. Thats kind of the problem

It seems like "Exploration" is at least a middle ground name that does cover the crossings of the various Norse and Polynesians, to the discoveries of Portugal, Spain, and Ming China etc.

The Polynesia were exploring and settling islands before the Romans were an empire and the Norse were an outlier of European history, quite literally forgotten. Ming Treasure fleet was almost contemporaneous and completely overshadowed by European exploration and even then that was a complere outlier in their own history, let alone the history of other Asian civilizations and nations. We know why European historigraphy calls what we now refer to as the Early Modern Age "the Exploration/Discovery Age" but why would we define all of 400-1600 by this one trend?

"Age of Empires" to me really doesn't work considering all the ancient Empires of Antiquity: Assyria, Neo-Babylonian, Macedonian, Achaemenid Persia, Rome, Carthage, Maurya, Qin/Han China just to name a few.

The reverse of this argument applies imo. Age of exploration doesn't work considering all the empires and peoples of ancient Polynesians, Carthagians, Persians, Greeks in antiquity that explored and the nations that explore and continue to explore our world and space in the "modern age" like the British, Russia, France, Netherlands, Belgiums, Germans, the United States, India, China, Japan, etc, etc.
 
The point of Separate mechanics being in (separate campaigns) means they don't have to interact
Spearman will never get attacked by a ocean going Battleship (something that happens in every civ from 1-6)
You won't have a Merchant Caravan trying to get resources from your Corporate Branch
You won't need to know how Modern Free Religion Policy interacts with a Pantheon

What do you mean? We were literally have seen spears against riflemen in the 19th century. Why shouldn't a battleship be able to attack a spearman in Civilization? The Merchant caravans in Civilization literally evolve and increase in distance as a model of techonological devolopment. We still see merchants caravans and ships still traveling the world to sell things today, why shouldn't merchants tie into Corporation mechanics? Modern Free Religion policy still interacts with pantheonic and unorganized beliefs to this day.

I'm confused about what you think this new age system is actually acomplishing that wasn't already abstracted in Civilizations' design.

Now they could do those (for edge cases that would arise when people nuked a chariot so they could launch an interstellar craft in 1230 AD)
But that would make the rules of the mechanics more complicated

By saying.... before Anyone gets "X", everyone else gets/loses "Y" that makes
-Balancing simpler
-Mechanics simpler
-Immersion simpler

and it has the added side bonus (the main bonus) of allowing anti-snowball.... and because the anti-snowball mechanics are limited to specific periods you can tune them and not have them ruin the fun of snowballing. (you just reduce the longterm benefits)

you're justifying gameplay design in a conversation that was just about historical justifcation
 
I woudn't try split a time period of 400-1600 into one word. Thats kind of the problem
Ok but Firaxis wanted to make the middle part of their video game encompass 400-1600 CE. Thus they needed a name for it. Thus Exploration era, as it seems the most fitting name for what they're going for.
It's a video game that doesn't take place on earth and loosely uses history as a part of its gameplay. It does not need to take into account the infinite intricacies of real world history.
 
Ok but Firaxis wanted to make the middle part of their video game encompass 400-1600 CE. Thus they needed a name for it. Thus Exploration era, as it seems the most fitting name for what they're going for.

So firaxis decided to make an unnesscary and arbitrary decision based on gameplay first and foremost and is now seeking to justify it historically after the fact. Firaxis wanting to make something doesn't mean everyone has to agree with their logic.

It's a video game that doesn't take place on earth and loosely uses history as a part of its gameplay. It does not need to take into account the infinite intricacies of real world history.

I really don't like this argument and it falls flat when you realize that the entire game is about abstracting human/real world history and the Civilization series quite literally wouldn't be what it is today without the historical themeing. Get rid of the references to history and you have a completely different series, one that by all evidence and logic would not sell anywhere near as well.
 
I'm sorry that you think I was being dismissive but the thing you read as sarcastic was me actually trying to make a point. Though I understand in hindsight how what i wrote may be interpreted as trying to be dismissive and I apologize. The point is simply an extension of the question in the original comment that you quoted. Where are we drawing the line and why?

You're alluding to some metaphysical conception of "exploration" ex: exploration of sciences but by that logic why wouldn't the Modern Era be more deserving of the title "Age of Exploration"? What about the continents and peoples who didn't have scientific establishments? This period from 400-1600 is also defined by conquest and the establishment of empires. Why isn't the second age called the "Age of Empires"? Where is the line drawn when trying to define such wide periods global trends? This is the actual conversation being had and I'm sincerly not trying to dismiss you even when I poke holes in reasoning.



So again, I don't want to be dismissive but I'm going to go based on what Firaxis has advertised and repeatedly showcased and stated as their intent for the Age vs. baseless speculating their intent. The map quite literally expands during the era, the tech tree extends into atleast 1600s and the repeatedly stated theme of the era is about finding new commodities in far off lands. Until stated otherwise the Exploration being refered to is physical.



See the funny thing is, My issue with ages is entirely on the unnecessarity of splitting the game into three seperate game rounds and then justifying a purely gameplay decision afterwards in flimsily historical justification. These changes serve gameplay first and foremost and the "existential historical examination" you seem to believe Firaxis is trying to create really doesn't seem to exist. I'd argue that it seems that Firaxis seems more concerned with forcing arbitrary narrative and railroaded structure into their inherently sandbox 4x game than I am concerned with expecting a "traditional historical narrative" from Civilization, whatever that means .
First, you have a tendency to pepper your responses with dismissive phrase and quips that are completely unnecessary. You are obviously unaware of this so I will give you an example.

You: “… I am concerned with expecting a “traditional historical narrative” from Civilization, whatever that means.”

“Whatever that means” is dismissive and unnecessary. If you are not a native English speaker, I understand, but otherwise it’s rude.

Also, “unnecessarity”, “flimsy”, “forcing”, “railroaded” just in the last paragraph.

Traditional Historical Narrative of WW2 in Europe: WW1, Treaty, Political Violence, Hitler in Power, Appeasement, Invasion of Poland, WAR, France Falls, Germany invade Russia, D-Day, VE-Day. Obviously abbreviated. Examine the political and economic events, causes and results.

Existential Historical Examination: Facts(Above), how the causes resulted in war, how the human condition worsened or improved as a result, an examination of human evil and the complexities and consequences of conflicting ideologies at the human level. etc...

I have watched the same Civ VII promotional content as you and have seen, especially through the insights shared by Dr. Johnson, a clear shift in their approach to this iteration of Civilization. Is it incredibly deep? No, it can't be, nor has it ever been from a Traditional Historical Narrative approach. It's a video game.
Evidence for my claim. Simple. I will give you three off the top of my head.

1: Eliminating linear progression through Ages and periodic Crisis. Crisis that cannot be avoided but mitigated through game play decision making is representative of the ever present "existential threat" to humanity. You can prepare for the unexpected, but the unexpected will happen none the less. Your decisions prior to the event will not only determine if you survive or perish, but is also, in many cases, the catalyst for the event occurring in the first place. Ages set you up to play as historical people groups during their peak, confronting their self-made or natural crisis, trying to survive and recover, born anew in the next age. In the next age, you again rise and fall, caring on traits, the threads, connecting you to the people before you. An existential examination of human progression, where ancient societies never really collapse, they only transform. Your existence is the result of many layers(copies, admixtures, and mutations) of DNA. Exactly like the game. You will see remnants, some functional and some expired, of the previous Civ you chose, and the lasting bonuses from the previous ages.

2. Dr. Johnson made it very clear that the entire map is considered inhabited from the very beginning of the game. when you place your capital, you are in essence representing the people of that tile, forming a civilization. Every tile you take through border expansion, settlement, or conflict is considered to be, by the design team, the assimilation, subjugation, or displacement of the people currently inhabiting that tile. In essence, every tile you control is an examination into our basic human desires and the consequences of how we chose to act on those desires. Eliminating the barbarians, turning them into independent people who will eventually form city states. This game system will explore how humanity interacts with other organized, but less establish/advanced, societies. How will you handle them? They are a temptation ripe for conquest or manipulation.

3. The soft settlement cap implies a moral or ethical meter. Will you stay under, or go over that threshold and what will it mean for the people of your civilization? It has a happiness impact. That's incredibly interesting. Probably has lasting consequences as well as crisis implications.

The teams new approach is refreshing to me. Some of these existential questions have been in Civ this entire time, but it is clear to me that they have shifted focus to bring these questions out of the shadows, giving them a little more depth and consequence.
 
So firaxis decided to make an unnesscary and arbitrary decision based on gameplay first and foremost and is now seeking to justify it historically after the fact. Firaxis wanting to make something doesn't mean everyone has to agree with their logic.
It is not arbitrary or unnecessary if it makes the game more fun. They are clearly going for a 3 act structure game and if that sacrifices historicity for the sake of making the game fun to play then so be it, because at the end of the day they are trying to make a video game that people find fun to play.
I really don't like this argument and it falls flat when you realize that the entire game is about abstracting human/real world history and the Civilization series quite literally wouldn't be what it is today without the historical themeing. Get rid of the references to history and you have a completely different series, one that by all evidence and logic would not sell anywhere near as well.
I never implied that they are removing the historical themes nor that they should. All I am saying is that when the devs decide on something based on gameplay related decisions then it becomes somewhat arbitrary and unnecessary to argue against it using a historicity based lens.
 
What do you mean? We were literally have seen spears against riflemen in the 19th century. Why shouldn't a battleship be able to attack a spearman in Civilization? The Merchant caravans in Civilization literally evolve and increase in distance as a model of techonological devolopment. We still see merchants caravans and ships still traveling the world to sell things today, why shouldn't merchants tie into Corporation mechanics? Modern Free Religion policy still interacts with pantheonic and unorganized beliefs to this day.

I'm confused about what you think this new age system is actually acomplishing that wasn't already abstracted in Civilizations' design.



you're justifying gameplay design in a conversation that was just about historical justifcation
IRL International Trade of 90 BCE work in a very different way than International Trade in 1990 CE
A Modern Cargo ship delivery is very much not like an Ancient Merchant Caravan (there are similarities, but that's why they will probably both affect the $ and Resource Models)
So in Civ they can get abstracted differently, (because the different type of Trade gameplay would be both interesting and immersive)

Some versions of civ did this by adding corporations at the end of the game, but those models had to work with the merchant caravans that were set up to try and gamify international trade throughout all of history

In civ 7 international trade is represented by 3 different models, and the advantage those models have is they don't need to interact with other models.
That allows those models to represent international trade in their era in a way that is More historically immersive with out worrying about how it will interact with models not designed for that era.
 
First, you have a tendency to pepper your responses with dismissive phrase and quips that are completely unnecessary. You are obviously unaware of this so I will give you an example.

I've been told particularly by the mods :lol: but a lot of the time, I'm genuinely not trying to insult or dismiss and I am sincerly addressing points being made but I will apologize for the misunderstanding and try to explain myself further after the fact.

You: “… I am concerned with expecting a “traditional historical narrative” from Civilization, whatever that means.”

“Whatever that means” is dismissive and unnecessary. If you are not a native English speaker, I understand, but otherwise it’s rude.

I am a native English speaker and I meant what I said. I don't know what you mean when you make a complete assumption and state things like "You want a traditional historical narrative" from Civilization..

Also, “unnecessarity”, “flimsy”, “forcing”, “railroaded” just in the last paragraph.

Alll my opinions I have specifically about Firaxis design choices, not inherent insults or dismissals of you or your position.

Traditional Historical Narrative of WW2 in Europe: WW1, Treaty, Political Violence, Hitler in Power, Appeasement, Invasion of Poland, WAR, France Falls, Germany invade Russia, D-Day, VE-Day. Obviously abbreviated. Examine the political and economic events, causes and results.

Existential Historical Examination: Facts(Above), how the causes resulted in war, how the human condition worsened or improved as a result, an examination of human evil and the complexities and consequences of conflicting ideologies at the human level. etc...

Civilization has never explicitely and accurately modeled WWI or WWII or the rise of Hitler and the Invasion of Poland and I have never asked for Firaxis to design their video game abstraction of human history around D-day.... and I'm also unsure how splitting the game into three obvious and seperate game rounds almost entirely to a response of gameplay concerns is an "Existential Historical Examination:" of the human condition.

Kind of part of the reason why I remain confused at being attacked based on what seems entirely to be strawman.

I have watched the same Civ VII promotional content as you and have seen, especially through the insights shared by Dr. Johnson, a clear shift in their approach to this iteration of Civilization. Is it incredibly deep? No, it can't be, nor has it ever been from a Traditional Historical Narrative approach. It's a video game.
Evidence for my claim. Simple. I will give you three off the top of my head.

1: Eliminating linear progression through Ages and periodic Crisis. Crisis that cannot be avoided but mitigated through game play decision making is representative of the ever present "existential threat" to humanity. You can prepare for the unexpected, but the unexpected will happen none the less. Your decisions prior to the event will not only determine if you survive or perish, but is also, in many cases, the catalyst for the event occurring in the first place. Ages set you up to play as historical people groups during their peak, confronting their self-made or natural crisis, trying to survive and recover, born anew in the next age. In the next age, you again rise and fall, caring on traits, the threads, connecting you to the people before you. An existential examination of human progression, where ancient societies never really collapse, they only transform. Your existence is the result of many layers(copies, admixtures, and mutations) of DNA. Exactly like the game. You will see remnants, some functional and some expired, of the previous Civ you chose, and the lasting bonuses from the previous ages.

Again these were decisions made for gameplay concerns first and foremost. You're just explaining the gameplay mechanics we know Firaxis decided to change and designed specifically to address the concerns of late game engagement and snowballing first and foremost with a thin vaneer of history Firaxis used to justify after the fact. Yes historical empires and nations rise and fall, no the entire world doesn't undergo arbitrary crisis at the end of completely arbitrary historical eras all at the same time and then fall and rise (read: change civs) at the same time giving entirely new game bonuses and setting players all closer together for the next game round. The ages were designed for the sake of gameplay, more than some deep exploration of human condition.

2. Dr. Johnson made it very clear that the entire map is considered inhabited from the very beginning of the game. when you place your capital, you are in essence representing the people of that tile, forming a civilization. Every tile you take through border expansion, settlement, or conflict is considered to be, by the design team, the assimilation, subjugation, or displacement of the people currently inhabiting that tile. In essence, every tile you control is an examination into our basic human desires and the consequences of how we chose to act on those desires. Eliminating the barbarians, turning them into independent people who will eventually form city states. This game system will explore how humanity interacts with other organized, but less establish/advanced, societies. How will you handle them? They are a temptation ripe for conquest or manipulation.

Okay but all these things conceptual and abstractly existed in past Civilization. We already had minor civs and city states in the civ series that you he ion of interang with or conquering and past civ mods had already allowed Barbarians to morph into minor civs.

3. The soft settlement cap implies a moral or ethical meter. Will you stay under, or go over that threshold and what will it mean for the people of your civilization? It has a happiness impact. That's incredibly interesting. Probably has lasting consequences as well as crisis implications.

The soft settlement cap implies its a gameplay design choice meant to limit the player from expanding more than designed without a hard cap. We've seen such soft limits to expansion before in Civ 5.
The teams new approach is refreshing to me. Some of these existential questions have been in Civ this entire time, but it is clear to me that they have shifted focus to bring these questions out of the shadows, giving them a little more depth and consequence.

I'm glad that you feel that way and my responses to you are defenses of my positions and opinions. They are not intended to insult you or force you to believe exactly what I do.
 
It is not arbitrary or unnecessary if it makes the game more fun. They are clearly going for a 3 act structure game and if that sacrifices historicity for the sake of making the game fun to play then so be it, because at the end of the day they are trying to make a video game that people find fun to play.

What is fun is completely subjective... I have no problem having fun in late game Civ.

They seemed to have made this change based on data that most people who have purchased the game have never finished a full campaign (which is not surprising when most longer single player games, even the most popular, boast similar completion statistics) but I don't know any fans of the series who were specifically asking them to split the campaign into a structured 3 act narrative. Just because Firaxis decided something would be more fun or "better" doesn't mean everyone has to accept that conclusion.

I never implied that they are removing the historical themes nor that they should. All I am saying is that when the devs decide on something based on gameplay related decisions then it becomes somewhat arbitrary and unnecessary to argue against it using a historicity based lens.

See the problem with this is that Firaxis has specifically advertised their gameplay related decisions with historical related justifications and even set the "historical path" for civilization swapping as the default. The devs themselves have opened themselves up to this conversation and debate
 
I've been told particularly by the mods :lol: but a lot of the time, I'm genuinely not trying to insult or dismiss and I am sincerly addressing points being made but I will apologize for the misunderstanding and try to explain myself further after the fact.



I am a native English speaker and I meant what I said. I don't know what you mean when you make a complete assumption and state things like "You want a traditional historical narrative" from Civilization..



Alll my opinions I have specifically about Firaxis design choices, not inherent insults or dismissals of you or your position.



Civilization has never explicitely and accurately modeled WWI or WWII or the rise of Hitler and the Invasion of Poland and I have never asked for Firaxis to design their video game abstraction of human history around D-day.... and I'm also unsure how splitting the game into three obvious and seperate game rounds almost entirely to a response of gameplay concerns is an "Existential Historical Examination:" of the human condition.

Kind of part of the reason why I remain confused at being attacked based on what seems entirely to be strawman.



Again these were decisions made for gameplay concerns first and foremost. You're just explaining the gameplay mechanics we know Firaxis decided to change and designed specifically to address the concerns of late game engagement and snowballing first and foremost with a thin vaneer of history Firaxis used to justify after the fact. Yes historical empires and nations rise and fall, no the entire world doesn't undergo arbitrary crisis at the end of completely arbitrary historical eras all at the same time and then fall and rise (read: change civs) at the same time giving entirely new game bonuses and setting players all closer together for the next game round. The ages were designed for the sake of gameplay, more than some deep exploration of human condition.



Okay but all these things conceptual and abstractly existed in past Civilization. We already had minor civs and city states in the civ series that you he ion of interang with or conquering and past civ mods had already allowed Barbarians to morph into minor civs.



The soft settlement cap implies its a gameplay design choice meant to limit the player from expanding more than designed without a hard cap. We've seen such soft limits to expansion before in Civ 5.


I'm glad that you feel that way and my responses to you are defenses of my positions and opinions. They are not intended to insult you or force you to believe exactly what I do.
So your point is these things are for gameplay purposes and the historical context is just for marketing purposes. After the fact, “how do we sell this”, marketing?

I clearly stated that the existential questions were always there, but now they are being deliberately elevated in a three act format.

Ultimately, cutting through the bs, this is the game they made. Nothing you or I say will change that. You seem personally aggrieved at this point. They don’t care about your personal needs nor mine. They develop a game and your belittling of their years of effort will fall on deaf ears. Yes, you belittle and dismiss others opinions with intention. You do it and should stop doing it. A team of highly educated and experienced professionals pour years of effort into a product and you dismiss their reasoning for “veneer”, which has a negative connotation, which is par for the course with you.

You seem to be hyper focused on words and dates, clearly missing the forest for the trees from the designers to the people replying to you. So, I will give you what you want and so desperately need, you’re right. As for being attacked, you make rude quips and veiled slights. You know you do . You reap what you sow young man.
 
I woudn't try split a time period of 400-1600 into one word. Thats kind of the problem
I agree with you. I personally wouldn't either. But as it stands that's what's happening in the game, and the term "Exploration" is one of the best terms to describe what is happening. The only other term I can think of would be "Middle Age" because it's the second age out of three, but that doesn't sound great either.
 
So your point is these things are for gameplay purposes and the historical context is just for marketing purposes. After the fact, “how do we sell this”, marketing?

I clearly stated that the existential questions were always there, but now they are being deliberately elevated in a three act format.

You clearly stated something i disagree with yes.

I don't see how the three act format elevates anything you've stated specifically. I'm sorry. @Krikkit1's point about how each era can use mechanics and victory conditions more specifically themed around the time period I understood and could even agree with but again I'd still argue thats a change more intended on fixing the gameplay concern addressing late game engagement first and foremost than historical accuracy necessarily.

Ultimately, cutting through the bs, this is the game they made. Nothing you or I say will change that. You seem personally aggrieved at this point. They don’t care about your personal needs nor mine. They develop a game and your belittling of their years of effort will fall on deaf ears. Yes, you belittle and dismiss others opinions with intention. You do it and should stop doing it. A team of highly educated and experienced professionals pour years of effort into a product and you dismiss their reasoning for “veneer”, which has a negative connotation, which is par for the course with you.

Ultimately cutting through the BS, this is the game they made and I am totally within my rights as a long time series fan to criticize what they presented us. No matter how much it upsets some. I hate to spoil it but teams who devolop video games are not infalliable or above criticism.

Firaxis may not care about my personal needs or yours but they're certainly going to care about our money as long time fans... and considering that there seems to be a pretty sizeable portion of fans who have no interest in the sequel and/or remain negative because of such changes, I don't think they have to remain silent in their critiques just because Firaxis put "a lot of work into a product"

You seem to be hyper focused on words and dates, clearly missing the forest for the trees from the designers to the people replying to you. So, I will give you what you want and so desperately need, you’re right. As for being attacked, you make rude quips and veiled slights. You know you do . You reap what you sow young man.

I'm not hyperfixated on anything. The thread/topic is about historians debating about historical merit and historgraphical framing of Firaxis' designed ages in their game meant to abstract human history... this is quite literally a conversation about dates, words, and subjective views of history and my original responses were very specifically addressed to the arguments and reasoning presented in the video
 
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All the changes they make will fundamentally be game-play changes, because what they are is game designers and what they are producing is a game. The biggest thing they seem to be trying to fix here is a huge complaint among their serious fan-base: late-game boredom.

Since it's a historical-themed game, they will need to find language for describing their game dynamics, and they will draw that from history, but it will only match up so well, because it's not fundamentally designed to say something about history; it's fundamentally designed to convey game dynamics.

Each game will model something different about how history develops. There are an infinite number of things in actual history that you might try to model; any given game will put a focus on one or another, or some few. And it will come at the cost of some other things. I myself worry that it will become tedious to always have exactly two crises in history, always involving the whole world, and always at the same time. But on the other hand, very few cultures have had an unbroken upward progress over a 6000-year span, so that has been (historically-speaking) cheesy in all previous versions of the franchise.
 
"
What is fun is completely subjective... I have no problem having fun in late game Civ.

They seemed to have made this change based on data that most people who have purchased the game have never finished a full campaign (which is not surprising when most longer single player games, even the most popular, boast similar completion statistics) but I don't know any fans of the series who were specifically asking them to split the campaign into a structured 3 act narrative. Just because Firaxis decided something would be more fun or "better" doesn't mean everyone has to accept that conclusion."

Totally agree with the above, I have never seen anywhere a call to split one game into three.

The conclusion that it's to end late game fatigue I'm kind of cynical with , Maybe's aye maybe's no we will see.

Perhaps from a marketing and sales point it might be a better selling point to the "new" console/ casual market the old less is best design.

Looks good and can kill a few hours on a smaller scale , but an improvement to the old age AI problems and a deeper Civ experience Na ,lets just pray that the modders can dig us out a hole before the Pc gamers bomb us.
 
All the changes they make will fundamentally be game-play changes, because what they are is game designers and what they are producing is a game. The biggest thing they seem to be trying to fix here is a huge complaint among their serious fan-base: late-game boredom.

Was or is late game boredom not down to a genuinely bad AI? I had some seriously good late games against other players.

Perhaps the game designers should have started with that , rather than cash grab a multiple platform game into various hard re-set's and a ridiculous Civ morphing to sell more skins
 
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