Strongest and Weakest Policies

[Bernd-das-Brot]

And please change the "Traditon-only wonder".

Tradition should be Terracotta army or Rice Terraces for a super city. The GL is in no way specific to a tall playstile.

 

[mystikx21]

@mitsho/bernd

A bonus to gold on say theaters/opera houses in tradition might be interesting alongside the culture buildings policy. I don't think we want to add more culture and tradition doesn't really need much happiness but effectively paying for a couple of culture/tourism buildings would be okay as a means of boosting a tall-culture approach and act as a means of improving a weaker policy.

I agree an extra spy on counterintelligence would be more appealing. The spy is flexible to be used for offensive purposes as well (CS effects or diplomacy).

I like those proposed changes to the wealth tree.
I'd like to see a 10% buildings effect in liberty too.

If nothing else, that could go on with the free walls. I'd rather see it combined with the flat +5 happy in piety's opener (moved to liberty) and make that into a shrine-temple bonus instead.

 

[mitsho]

I agree with the (apparently) more general point that there isn't always a good mix between short and longterm benefits.

From my current game though, I'd argue that Exploration with its current emphasis (which I think is an interesting one) comes one age too late. The AI seems to be too fast for them (and the human player) to be able to profit from the policies. One does need two policies (start w 5 pop + free settlers) to really profit from it which puts it quite a few turns after reaching Renaissance + then movement required + then the space that other civs have not settled yet... EDIT: I do think this policy needs a "long-term" effect besides this direct one. What about upping the yields internal trade routes provide, pumping production into a newly founded city does help a lot (even if food would be quite useless). Also, is it possible to make the newly founded city adhere to your own religion as a policy effect?

Maybe one could switch the era unlock of Wealth and Exploration?

 

[Kakafika]

Maybe one could switch the era unlock of Wealth and Exploration?

I'd like to try this

 

[jwerano]

Exploration is probably too powerful for the middle ages. It fits perfectly in Renaissance because then it has to complete with the valuable science boosting rationalism policies for your policy picks. Its a brilliant tree that addresses so many of the problems that formerly existed in the late game.

I find myself going exploration most games and as a result late game conquest often becomes unnecessary. It allows peaceful players to move units across the water extremely quickly, expand to a wide empire with ease, get those cities populated in a short time and make those cities contribute to the empire rather than draining it in a short time which other than boosting science is the most important factor for getting ahead of the AI in the late game on high difficulty. Warmongers also benefit from being able to send units across the ocean to other continents at 4-5 tiles per turn instead of paddling at 2-3 tiles per turn like they used to.
The exploration tree has completely transformed the late game for both the player and the AI, because this tree seems to be popular with AI who have wide empires.

The policy that gives the free buildings in all cities is without a doubt the most important policy in the tree and probably most powerful policy in the game. Free instant lighthouse, library, coliseum, monument, granary, shrine, caravan, with their specialist slots. Not just in new cities but in your old ones so you can prioritize theatres over monuments for example, then if you rush education and renaissance you can get these instantly in your old cities too. I'm surprised this policy has not been mentioned by anyone else in the discussion of exploration.

Also with the boost to ocean tiles/lighthouse, merchant slots and +2 science per specialists through rationalism you can put a city practically anywhere and have it contribute to your empire. There is no reason to be concerned with the AI seeming to take the most valuable city spots because exploration and the current state of the mod allow all city spots to become valuable quickly.

I'd love to see the free settler/worker/defender policy replaced with one of Mitsho's suggestions like instant religion in new cities or moving the Order tenet that boosts internal trade routes to here but overall the tree is incredible as is and putting it in middle ages would be more imbalanced than the Wealth tree.

 

[mitsho]

I do think it's hard to evaluate the tree properly since it's also heavily dependent on the map and even more so on the difficulty level. It does become a race for the right spot and a bit of a gamble whether "taking exploration" really was worth it.

You may very well be right that "all spots are worth it with exploration", but I'd still like a calculation of the "point of return" for those policies. After all, you'd probably need to complete the tree to get the happiness you need for these 5-pop cities, no? Maybe one could switch around with the effects here a bit (some free buildings to the finisher).

The tree hasn't been talked about all that much in this thread so far and I wonder why? Have people not used it enough or is it so well balanced?

 

[mystikx21]

It's really narrow in my opinion. The effects are (potentially) really powerful but being really narrow makes it hard to tell if it is balanced or not.

I would argue it still doesn't make "all" city spots valuable (I'm not sure what that means, not everywhere I can found a city is a city spot in my view). I don't think it's supposed to. But it might make resource grabs and any remaining good city sites more valuable yes.

 

[ExpiredReign]

I haven't looked closer at the whole Exploration tree because by the time I CAN choose it I have already established my empire and don't feel the need to further claim any NEW land. (someone else's land is another matter)

I didn't realise the granting of 1st tier buildings was retrospective! That makes it a real key policy, if worked properly. If that was intended then there should be a justification for it, I tend to think it may be a bug.

 

[Tomice]

I just started playing again after a long break, so I have little actual experience with the new policies. But I started a thread several months ago about how playing wide is pointless and terra maps don't really work.

Before we discard the exploration tree as too narrow, please think about terra maps or any other map with lots of space to settle. It might be situational, but it is also essential in quite a few cases. I'm very much with Jwerano in that I'm convinced that the tree has enormous potential.

It might be ok that it's not useful on all maps, since it's crucial on others

 

[ExpiredReign]

@Tomice

I think you may have a point here, I only ever use the Communitas map now and perhaps there should be more variety in testing with these things.

 

[Tomice]

I like the communitas terra-style option. In the past it was pointless, however, because going wide was very unattractive. Founding cities past the initial 4-5 only weakened you, especially lategame.

Now there are quite a few policies countering this through 2 major mechanics:

- New cities can catch up much faster
- More yields from terrain improvements

Trade routes killed the trading post economy that worked well in g&k and GEM, because you couldn't earn enough from tile improvements.

 

[skodkim]

It seems a lot of people don't like ceremonial rites and find it under powered. I actually like the way it's intended to work. The free cultural buildings help me in the early game as they speed up city border expansion and policies and the +1 to culture helps in a more broad perspective. It's however crippled by the fact that the cultural buildings aren't free and don't get extra culture due to bugs.

I really like horizon too but I don't agree that it's a no brainer. Of course the free settler is great but I often find that I have to postpone taking three policy because I don't have enough happiness. In that way it becomes situational and fun to play with.

\Skodkim

 

[jwerano]

It's really narrow in my opinion. The effects are (potentially) really powerful but being really narrow makes it hard to tell if it is balanced or not.

I would argue it still doesn't make "all" city spots valuable (I'm not sure what that means, not everywhere I can found a city is a city spot in my view). I don't think it's supposed to. But it might make resource grabs and any remaining good city sites more valuable yes.

Any coastal city with a library, a university, and a population of 6 will contribute positively to science and gold in your empire with ease. That is typically all it takes to overcome the 5% science penalty per city. Happiness is not an issue because exploration gives a free coliseum and there is a ton of happiness in other late game policies. You can have your 6 population city focus on science with specialists or you can have them work village tiles for gold, even village tiles in the barren desert would work though that's an extreme example if you have your population starting at 6 with the exploration policy. Ocean tiles, enhanced by the lighthouse are the easiest example however and there is no shortage of those. Plus the city will grow rapidly to size 8 even without an aqueduct and to 10 with one due to the food on ocean tiles and free granary.

The only drawback to building cities in the late game is that they will slow down culture. But you become a science and gold powerhouse to compensate. With rare exception all city spots are valuable and easy to set up in the late game through the exploration tree.

The tree doesn't seem narrow to me at all. Not relative to other trees. As far as I can tell its more broadly useful than patronage, piety, honor, and the culture tree. I thought in a recent poll most players voted that they preferred coastal cities which makes these policies all broadly useful.

+25% reduced purchase costs/25% reduced building maintenance
+2 movement for all units on water and bonus sight for ships.
+3 happiness total for lighthouse/harbor/seaport

 

[ExpiredReign]

I was curious about the comments about Colonization & Homestead Act, where your new cities are 5 and have all the first tier buildings for free.

I previously said my gamestyle doesn't allow for me building new cities that late in the game too often, so I modified my style to try. I have to agree with those that rate these policies highly. It is an outstanding way of conquerors placing a beach head on a disputed landmass and moving on from there.
The one thing that would make Homestead Act even better is the addition of the Harbour to the list of pre-built buildings. Connection to the capital is a must at these stages.
If you add in the possible Mercenary Army ability of buying and moving units in the same turn, and you will have a killer combo.
Find your site, found the city, buy any needed buildings to assist its growth, then buy a mass of defense units to protect it while does grow.

Definitely a couple of policies to look out for.
Thanks to all those that rated them highly and mentioned them here for me to see.

 

[Shadzy19]

Personally I would like to make the tree's to be even more focused on certain strategy's then they already are, adding to this the finishers should be stronger imho to encourage finishing a tree rather then just taking all the goodies from every tree and dishing the "junk".



Tradition: tall empire


Tradition opener should unlock terracotta army and rice terraces.

Ceremonial Rites: Monuments should be free, other then that its fine if it doesnt bugg out, for instance as Japan it gives you dojo's and no extra culture.

Monarchy: Perhaps give 1 gold / pop in cap?

Landed elite: Free granary in first 4 city's, +25% food in first 4 city's, +3 food in first 4 city's

Oligarchy: besides the already used bonuses, give a free ranged unit in your 4 oldest city's.



Liberty: wide empire


Opener: unlocks pyramids and hanging gardens.

Finisher: The free GP is great but I would also add -1 unhappiness / city.



Honor: military


Opener: unlocks statue of zeus and temple of artemis.
The culture from defeating barbs is for me the greatest imbalance in this game. Humans are very capable of farming barbs while the AI's dont understand the concept. Every game this policy alone gives me 3-5 free policy's and its always my first pick.
In stead of the culture give 2 free warriors at capital.

Military caste: besides the already used bonuses, give a free ranged unit in your 4 oldest city's.

Gladiators: a free arena in your 3 oldest city's, arena's give +2 culture and +1 happy.

Spoils of war: up the gold bonus to 300% / strenght.

Professional army: -50% upgrade cost, +15% prod for all military units.

Finisher: Can purchase great general from industrial. Unit maintenance is reduced by 30%. Military training buildings give 50% more exp.
Citadels give +3prod, +3science.



Piety: faith + golden ages


Opener: should unlock stonehenge and churches of lalibella.
+3 happy and +1 faith / city.

Unity: all current bonuses, +33% to GA turns.

Charity: temples +25% gold, holy sites provide 5 gold.

Finisher: Choose a pioef belief. Great prophets become 25% cheaper, holy sites provide +5 culture +2 tourism. The religion special buildings get +3 faith.



Patronage: city states and diplomacy


Opener: Unlocks angkor wat and forbidden palace
As others pointed out remove the meeting with all the CS, its not fun.
+1 influence / turn for trade routes to a CS.


Consulates: +20 resting point, +50% influence for performing missions for CS

Finisher: Current effects + Doubles the effect from scholasticism + 2 extra votes in world congres.



Aestics: cultural

I have never even opened this tree, cant judge it atm.



Wealth: gold and trade routes


Opener: unlocks panama canal and taj mahal.
Gives +5 gold in oldest 4 city's, lose the prod bonus.

Protectionism: +20% wealth, +1 gold on trading post and fishing boats.

Caravans: +2 gold / era for every trade route, +1 trade route.

Maritime Infrastructure (rename): -20% purchase costs.

Mercenary Army (rename): had some idea's but I doubt the AI can handle it, better to remove it all together.
I would replace it for: merchants give +4 gold, 1 extra merchant slots in every city.

Finisher: +2 gold and happiness for every luxury resource. Can buy great merchant from industrial. Stock exchange 50% faster to build, +3 culture for every trade route.




Exploration: Expansion, growth and naval

Opener: Unlocks CN Tower and Red ford, keep the current bonuses.

Naval tradition: +1 happy for every lighthouse, harbor or seaport, receive 3 free carracks.

Mercantilism (rename): +2 prod / coastal city, +2 gold for every lighthouse, harbor or seaport, receive 3 free galleass.

Colonization: Newly found city's start with 5 pop, receive 3 free settlers at the capital.

Homestead Act: Get a granary, lighthouse, aquaduct, smith, harbor and monument in newly settled city's.

Pioneer Spirt (rename): Military ships are build 25% faster and all newly build military ships get the promotion naval recon I for free.

Finisher: Can buy great admirals from industrial age, seaports 50% faster to build, get a free hospital in every city, -25% building maintenance.


Knowledge: Science


Openener: fine

Humanism: Up the bonus to 15% science when not at war.

Counterintelligence: +100% spy stealing rate, enemy spies 25% less effective, 1 extra spy.

Securalism: scientist give +3 science, 1 extra scientist slot, great scientists rate +25%.

Scientific Revolution: +100% research agreements awards, research agreements take 25% less turns. defensive pacts give 20 science / turn.

Finisher: can buy great scientist from industrial, research labs 50% faster to build, 1 free technology, +15% science in every city.



Hopefully some of these bring new idea's to improve this already fantastic mod.

 

[mystikx21]

I disagree that finishers should be stronger necessarily. If they are duds then yes, we can improve them.

In general the way to make people avoid just cherry picking is to have appealing combinations and powerful effects available in the tree. If there aren't "junk" policies, there's no problem with the finishers being somewhat weaker. I'm not going to take 2-3 mostly useless policies just to get to a finisher so hammering the tree with a bunch of effects there isn't all that helpful.

In addition there's no game play reason to "require" taking entire trees anymore, so there's little reason to encourage it.

 

[skodkim]

I agree that the Tradition opener should unlock Banaue Rice Terraces but I strongly disagree that it doesn't matter with the culture bonus on cultural buildings that Ceremonial Rites give. This has always been one of my favourite effects of GEM (or CEP). This way you get both in instant bonus that's nice for early city border expansion (free monuments) and a general one that applies for all ages/cities. That's really one of the bugs I hate the most right now.

\Skodkim

 

[a.out]

Hey! I'm new. First of all: great project. I actually found it while looking for a mod which gave some meaning to the honor tree, since fireaxis does not seem to care much.

Surprisingly though I find the policy balance to be the weak spot of the mod. There should be no +5 happiness opener and... 15% production AND 15% gold in ALL cities for the wealth opener ? I don't mean to sound rude, but that is just wrong. And one down there is another 10% + raw gold, production. Also, 1 worker really was enough for citizenship and collective rule comes too early. Honor is *almost* as useless as ever compared to the other choices.

To stay on topic - from a first glance:
Must-Haves:
Wealth Opener, Protectionism
(Too) Good:
Piety Opener
Underwhelming:
Almost everything Honor; Caravans ( should scale up with era )

I really hope to see some changes there while enjoying all the rest of the mod

Edit: Here is a thought for honor, if you don't mind me hijacking this thread ...
If you go on a killing spree, you battling your happiness more than your foes. This is one reason why non-honor policies are more useful even for warmongers most of the time. Now you could just keep adding happiness bonuses to honor but I think there is a more interesting way. How about increasing the unhappiness-tolerance instead ? The finisher could eliminate the combat penalty for below -10 for example. One policy could reduce growth and penalty. Rebels could appear less frequently. Stuff like that. I cannot offer any specifics yet but it may be worth some brainstorming.

 

[mystikx21]

Welcome.

This isn't that surprising that the policy balance is weaker. It's fairly new to the mod still and a thread like this is how we'd tweak it back into shape.

I don't know if that's a great idea that you can just ignore the penalties entirely but it would be consistent with a certain "bread and circus" mentality flavor-wise. I definitely agree that just throwing more happiness into the tree is meh. I already think it has too many such bonuses and needs to do other more unique warrior-related things that you couldn't get somewhere else to be interesting.

 

[a.out]

Welcome.

This isn't that surprising that the policy balance is weaker. It's fairly new to the mod still and a thread like this is how we'd tweak it back into shape.

I don't know if that's a great idea that you can just ignore the penalties entirely but it would be consistent with a certain "bread and circus" mentality flavor-wise. I definitely agree that just throwing more happiness into the tree is meh. I already think it has too many such bonuses and needs to do other more unique warrior-related things that you couldn't get somewhere else to be interesting.

Interesting, I did not know that it is something new.

Yeah, not all penalties should be ignored entirely - only the combat one since I think it would fit there nicely. At least to some point. The other penalties could just be reduced.

Another limiting factor for conquest are diplomatic hits. Maybe some policies could help there too in some form.