Succesfully Multi-lingual Nations

[Marla_Singer]

Belgium doesn't make sene, Marla.
There is close to nothing that links the Flemmish to the Walloons.

Well, of course I agree that Belgium is an artificial nation but the thing is that I fear that if we start to touch Belgian borders, all other European countries will want to change their borders again. And some other borders of the continent don't make better sense than those of Belgium. For instance, there are Hungarians living in Serbia, in Romania and in Slovakia. I don't want to stir up that kind of feelings once again Stapel. Especially today when national borders importance is decreasing.

Furthermore, I'm not sure that Flanders or Wallonia as independent countries really make better sense. We can balkanize the whole Europe if we want, but for which silly purpose ? I don't have hard feelings towards anyone Stapel, really. The thing is that I have the feelings most Europeans want to live in smaller countries, among people like them, sharing the exactly same microhistory as their village. I can't see how relevant can be this kind of moves in a world getting more and more globalized.

 

[SonicX]

Marla, you're right that many borders have been oddly redrawn after WW 1. But normally, giving ethnic minorties and minority languages some right in some areas is not really a problem for the management of the country.
The thing with Belgium is, that it's not about a minority vs majority, but it's a true bipolar society where political decisions are made with a parity system (2/3 majority across the country, at least 1/2 is both halfs)
This crosses the borders of mere ethnic differences, but really interferes with the efficiency of the entire country...

Split up and Wallonia will join France anyway, because they can't sustain themselves. Flanders might probably end up independant, but it's population of 6 million is does not make it the smallest country in Europe and it will most certainly seek even closer ties with the Netherlands. Probably the closest ties between countries there are in the world today.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Split up and Wallonia will join France anyway, because they can't sustain themselves.

You really despise Wallons obviously. Anyway, it's not so easy for Wallonia to join France "anyway". First, it's not so obvious 21st century France wants to expand its borders. Second, it's not so easy for France's main partners to accept so easily a bigger and as such more powerful France. For instance, I'm not sure Britain would really enjoy the idea that France would become the undisputable #2 in Europe.

Flanders might probably end up independant, but it's population of 6 million is does not make it the smallest country in Europe and it will most certainly seek even closer ties with the Netherlands. Probably the closest ties between countries there are in the world today.

Don't we have the European Union to make our ties closer already ? From my perspective fights such as the one for the independance of Flanders looks rather outdated. There's no deep reason for Flemish people to believe they'll have a better life once independent.

 

[Desertsnow]

Xenoglossophobia: n. An abnormal and morbid fear of foreign languages, a common ailment among Americans generally and American politicians especially.

 

[SonicX]

You really despise Wallons obviously. Anyway, it's not so easy for Wallonia to join France "anyway". First, it's not so obvious 21st century France wants to expand its borders. Second, it's not so easy for France's main partners to accept so easily a bigger and as such more powerful France. For instance, I'm not sure Britain would really enjoy the idea that France would become the undisputable #2 in Europe.

Wallonia only has 3 million inhabitants, it's not you're annexing the Netherlands or something. But don't get me wrong, I don't despise Walloons in general in a racist fashion, I just despise the way their governement's "NON" on every single Flemish issue and their lack of economic structure. How would you feel if Corsica would be demanding 2000 € per Frenchman annually to help them cover social security bills while corruption is rampant there ? When we give money, we expect it to be used properly, not invested in private steel working companies which are doomed anyways, but just have friends in the governement...
The Wallonian largest party, le Parti Socialiste, is the driving force behind this corruption, but they rise in power every election because they secure the exuberant transfers to be held intact (with moral support from the monarchy)

Don't we have the European Union to make our ties closer already ? From my perspective fights such as the one for the independance of Flanders looks rather outdated. There's no deep reason for Flemish people to believe they'll have a better life once independent.

They might look outdated and perhaps they are, but they certainly would do us good rather than bad. Our debts, largely created in the seventies again to help the ailing steel and coal industries against a certain death, would be almost halved and we'd no longer have to carry the entire burden of those debts (which as stated, are 90 % paid off by Flanders)
And we could decrease taxes and still sustain the social security with the transfers being gone. Corruption would go down as well and the Flemish market would become more interesting to investor due to lower taxes.
Smaller countries also get higher representation in the EU, so Flanders would have more Europarlementarians than today.
I really can't see one real downside which would make me doubt about seperating.

 

[Savage Discipil]

Xenoglossophobia: n. An abnormal and morbid fear of foreign languages, a common ailment among Americans generally and American politicians especially.

Americans are not afraid of other languages we just like English better

 

[Sims2789]

Wallonia only has 3 million inhabitants, it's not you're annexing the Netherlands or something. But don't get me wrong, I don't despise Walloons in general in a racist fashion, I just despise the way their governement's "NON" on every single Flemish issue and their lack of economic structure. How would you feel if Corsica would be demanding 2000 € per Frenchman annually to help them cover social security bills while corruption is rampant there ? When we give money, we expect it to be used properly, not invested in private steel working companies which are doomed anyways, but just have friends in the governement...

I completely sympathize with you. California sends billions of dollars every year to the federal government, which then sends it to Republican moocher-states in the form of subsidies. And those states are the bery ones that claim to oppose federal authority and federal interference in the economy (i.e. welfare) yet they accept subsidies and government handouts at every chance they get. And then they pass anti-technology laws (luckily California ignores most of these) and destroy our freedoms. Unfortunately, the subsidy-dependent parts of California (the Inland Empire, Fresno, etc.) are the same way.

 

[Sims2789]

Of course! However, he himself never accepted this idea.

Quite true. William of Orange considered himself Spanish, at least for a large portion of his life.

 

[blindside]

I completely sympathize with you. California sends billions of dollars every year to the federal government, which then sends it to Republican moocher-states in the form of subsidies. And those states are the bery ones that claim to oppose federal authority and federal interference in the economy (i.e. welfare) yet they accept subsidies and government handouts at every chance they get. And then they pass anti-technology laws (luckily California ignores most of these) and destroy our freedoms. Unfortunately, the subsidy-dependent parts of California (the Inland Empire, Fresno, etc.) are the same way.

So then why do you support democrats and social welfare?

 

[SonicX]

That I don't understand either. If you want lower taxes, don't vote democratic... you know that. Just as we know we don't need to vote socialist, but liberal in order to lower the taxes.
But here, the problem is Flanders does vote liberals, but due to the parity system, the Walloons always vote the socialists in and we can't get the Walloon socialists out of the federal government, no matter how we vote, which is frustrating to say the least.

 

[Stapel]

Quite true. William of Orange considered himself Spanish, at least for a large portion of his life.

He never ever considered himself Spanish....
Where the hell did you get this crap from?

 

[The Last Conformist]

Spaniards in William's day hardly considered themselves Spanish; they generally primarily thought of themselves as Castilians, Catalans, etc.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Spaniards in William's day hardly considered themselves Spanish; they generally primarily thought of themselves as Castilians, Catalans, etc.

Why are you talking about this in the past ? Is it supposed to not be true anymore ?

 

[Stapel]

Whatever Spanish thought of themselves in the 16th century, William of Orange was a German.

The Dutch national anthem still today has these rather stunning opening lines, pointing out he is of German blood, (and NOT of Spanish blood).

 

[Flak]

We cannot destroy a language by force.

Tragically, yes you can. It happened to the hundreds of Native American languages. They were forced to send their children to public schools where the children were not allowed to speak their native tounge for fear of punishment. This policy was in place for generations. It was more than enough to wipe out all but some of the most remote people's languages, and even those are facing certain extinction.

Any efforts to 'revive' these languages today are token. I believe the government is quite satisfied with the results.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Whatever Spanish thought of themselves in the 16th century, William of Orange was a German.

The Dutch national anthem still today has these rather stunning opening lines, pointing out he is of German blood, (and NOT of Spanish blood).

I don't see anything stunning about it. I suppose I just know too much history.

 

[Stapel]

I don't see anything stunning about it. I suppose I just know too much history.

It is when you have to sing it before the start of a football match against the Jerrries!

 

[The Last Conformist]

It is when you have to sing it before the start of a football match against the Jerrries!

I suppose!

 

[kronic]

I think it's time we give the NL back to Germany.

Best proposal so far.

 

[SonicX]

Haha, the Germans still haven't change one bit
Still want more land ey