Successful Diplomacy Experiences?

[aimlessgun]

So the conventional wisdom seems to be that diplomacy doesn't exist, or is impossible/hopeless/stupid.

I'm currently playing a game where that is not the case at all, and I'm wondering if that is a fluke or if anyone else has replicated this (or if people already know all this stuff and don't think it counts as 'diplomacy').

It's a large fractal map that generated a pangea somehow, and I'm smack in the middle of it. I was messing around with the "large city games" thread objective, and in the spirit of being a builder put a "no offensive war" rule on myself. So I'm not allowed to DoW the AI or to invade an AI that has DoWed me.

Only 151 turns in, but completely surrounded by AI's and still have not been DoWed.

The key seems to be Pacts of Secrecy and bribing the AI into wars. Not rocket science. At the start you'll generally get a couple PoS requests. Figure out a neighbor you can isolate and maybe turn into a target, and just try to get a PoS against him with everyone.

Pretty soon in the game the AI is going to start thinking of attacking you. You'll need to bribe them into attacking someone else, and if you've set them up with a PoS against a target or two, this should be fairly easy (cost me one luxury).

Now here's the beautiful thing: the AI you just bribed into a war gets tagged as warmonger by all the other AI's! I bribed England (who had an army marching in my direction) to DoW Russia, then I turned around and PoS'ed the hell out of England. Pretty soon all my other neighbors were declaring war on England.

Cooperation Pacts are also pretty useful for buffering you from a DoW, since they will always cancel it in preparation. Later in the game Ramses cancels a PoC, so I slap him with a bunch of PoS's and then sic the Mongols on him. And then of course my neighbors, after dismembering England, go after the Mongols because of their warmongering.

Anyways, I had a pangea game before where I made it to the modern age without war, but I didn't really know why: thinking back that game followed what is happening in my current game except I got lucky and didn't really do it intentionally. Basically you can channel the AI's aggression into other AI's for the whole game if you play your cards right.

Of course, one AI may end up dominating and overrunning the whole world, but that should take a sufficiently long time for you to win

Important note: the AI seems programmed to settle in your direction. This is incredibly annoying, and a big cause of early DoWs since they're all like "hey don't settle near us (even though we just put a city 3 tiles from your cap). The usual (and best) way to deal with this is build Horses or Swords and just kill everyone around you. The peaceful option requires championship settler blocking. I had my entire (small) army running around settler blocking for the first 80 turns.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Well, I'm programmed to settle in the AI's direction, too.
Like, grab choke points and such early and set up a significant perimeter, then refuse open borders so I can claim a large region of territory.
(Helps to send multiple settlers out to camp good spots for building while waiting for a crucial SP)

Also, it seems that staying on good terms with most of the AIs is much easier if you never finish anyone off.
Go to war when DoW'ed or along with an ally, capture a few sweet cities, then make peace.

With excess luxuries, selling them at a "slight loss" improves relations somewhat, too.
For instance, you ask them what they would give you for one, and then manually adjust the value down slightly and propose the deal.

 

[E66man]

So the conventional wisdom seems to be that diplomacy doesn't exist, or is impossible/hopeless/stupid.

I'm currently playing a game where that is not the case at all, and I'm wondering if that is a fluke or if anyone else has replicated this (or if people already know all this stuff and don't think it counts as 'diplomacy').

I'll be very curious to try this out myself and see if I get similar results.

I would claim though that this works because the diplomacy system is in fact broken in the manner that what you might traditionally view as diplomacy won't work. It seems to be impossible to directly maintain good relations with anyone over the long-term, so you find success indirectly by stirring up the pot. But I guess Bismarkian-style 'realpolitik' still counts as 'diplomacy' of sorts.

 

[Bibor]

Well, I'm programmed to settle in the AI's direction, too.

Haha, so true!

 

[DaveGold]

I think there are enough peaceful periods in after patch 62 to try these manipulations but all the diplomacy bugs can still drag you into a mire. There can also be serious problems letting one big AI dominate

 

[E66man]

There can also be serious problems letting one big AI dominate

Yes, accidentally creating a monster might be the biggest drawback to this scheme.

 

[Lanstro]

I've just won a game where diplomacy seemed to work out well and I made a lifelong friend. Might be a fluke, might not be. Did it slightly differently from the OP though.

Immortal, fractal, standard sized map, epic speed, standard all other settings, as Egypt.

The map generated essentially two big continents side-by-side, joined in the middle by a single hex land bridge. So it looked kind of like a bra. I was in the south of the eastern continent, with the Mongols northwest of me, the Songhai further northwest of the Mongols (and occupying that single hex land bridge), while the Aztecs were northeast of me, and the Americans even further northeast of the Aztecs.

I ended up settling just 3 cities in total around the southern coast of my continent. Being Egyptian, I started with a fair bit of desert near me, which was undesirable for settling by me or the AI. That meant that the AIs didn't end up settling near me for much of the early to midgame. This made staying peaceful in the early game very easy. To my west was 2 city states: I allied them fairly early and so in effect me and my allied city states made a 'wall' of 5 cities at the south end of our continent, around which was a lot of rubbish terrain.

I sold all my spare resources and open borders at every opportunity, favouring my immediate neighbours first (Mongols and Aztecs). I agreed to all pacts of cooperation and turned down all requests for pacts of secrecy. This I did all through the game. From the medieval ages I started signing research agreements with everyone I knew, starting with the closest neighbours. All of this I would think heavily deterred them from warring me. I was going for a cultural victory so I was mostly wonderwhoring, and for most of the game my army consisted of a single swordsman.

Soon enough it looked like the Aztecs were going to be a runaway civ. It expanded the quickest and during late classical it started fighting Washington to its northwest. The war took a while since Washington was also quite sizeable, but by late Medieval the Aztecs had wiped them. At the same time the Mongols took a few cities from Songhai, but left them with a few cities. So my two immediate neighbours were sizeable and pretty scary. By then I had met the civs on the other continent: it was unclear who was leading the race out of that continent, so I treated them all equally well with my spare resources.

By mid to late Renaissance, the Mongols and the Aztecs started getting angry with each other and started fighting. The Mongols also bit the bullet and started settling the rubbish terrain around my cities, so it was convenient that he was already in a war. I stayed friendly with both sides through this conflict, and their war was pretty even, with the Aztecs taking one or two cities. Meanwhile on the other continent, Cyrus started looking like the dominant force, after massacring the Greeks. So I started favouring him with my resource selling and research agreements. I also offered him a defense pact, figuring 'why not', and to my surprise he accepted! No idea why he would do that, but I imagine that went a long way towards keeping the Mongols and Aztecs off my back. Every time the pact expired I was able to renew it. At times, for some reason, it would allow us to have two simultaneous defensive pacts: probably a bug.

From late Renaissance to late Industrial, the world started being dominated by Cyrus. He slowly pushed through all the civs sharing his continent, leaving only Russia as a respectable force, while also pushing east onto our continent. He declared war on the Mongols and wiped the floor with them. Mongolia was left with just a few of those rubbish cities near mine. I stayed on cordial relations with Cyrus - in diplomacy he was calling me a friend, and was happy to see me, etc etc. Soon enough, Cyrus also declared war on the Aztecs. Cyrus had the tech lead but it was difficult for him to deploy on our continent due to the one hex landbridge choke point, so it became a long long war with no side getting the upper hand.

Around this time the Russians and Mongolians declared war on me. This was a little bit terrifying since the Mongolians still had a decent army and I had a grand total of one swordsman. It was also strange that Cyrus didn't automatically declare war on the Mongols due to our defensive pact (maybe because technically Russia declared war first, which triggered and broke the pact, and Cyrus was already at war with Russia. Then, Mongolia declared, but by then the pact had been used up: arguably a bug), but Cyrus was happy to re-enter the war against Mongolia in exchange for one luxury, while the Aztecs were also fairly easily bribed into the war. The Mongolians retreated from my lands to face their new foes and I rushed out a small army and puppeted one of his cities. He was wiped out soon after. The Russians stayed at war with me for a few dozen turns, but had no hope of getting to me seeing as her immediate neighbour (Cyrus) was diligently killing her.

By late industrial it became clear that Cyrus would slowly, but surely, take out the Aztecs eventually. He was still quite friendly with me but for me it was clear that I had to start getting an army. By then I had gotten almost all of the buildings and wonders I wanted for the cultural victory: Cristo Redentor, broadcast towers, etc. I started building a military and switched research to military techs (though it was very very slow progress due to only having 3 cities, and most of my older research agreement partners now being dead).

Thankfully Cyrus took forever actually 'cleaning up' the Russians and the Aztecs. He had them down to 1-2 cities but for some reason took forever to take them. Meanwhile I started building the Utopia Project while pumping out anti-tanks, mech infantry and artillery. With about 15 turns to go on the Project, Cyrus finally killed the Russians and Aztecs off, and started taking out the city states which were not allied to me. With about 9 turns to go, his attitude to me turned hostile: he told me that my army was pathetic. This was probably a reflection of the 'play to win' AI knowing that I was the only one left with my own capital. However in the diplomacy screen he was still talking like we were friends. This was a very nervous few turns for me: my army was getting sizeable, but definitely not big enough to survive 9 turns of war against his masses of modern armour, mech infantry and gunships.

But the moment of danger passed, and he didn't declare war. My ~3 artilleries (later upped to rocket artilleries), ~6 bombers, a fighter, 2 battleships, 1 destroyer, ~4 mech infantries, ~4 anti-tanks (later upped to gunships) and a citadel on a hill were enough to deter the declaration of war, and Cyrus allowed me the cultural victory despite being shown as 'hostile' at the end.

Very entertaining game for me. I think I actually like cultural games in V better than in IV.

 

[Roxlimn]

aimlessgun:

Been telling everyone that the diplomacy isn't pointless for, like forever. Seems like my preferred settings makes everyone just ignore what I'm saying. Maybe you'll have better luck.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Be aware that this will not work on a three civ continent. At least, not if you start by drilling one of them like I always do

Even if you don't take your victim all the way out, agitating will just lead to that civ's death and a stronger rival.

 

[pi-r8]

The only times I've had any peace with the AI is when I had very few cities. I think they really, really hate it when you've got more cities than you do. I can kind of see the idea behind this, but it leads to a lot of really strange declarations of war by civs that really have no reason to declare on you.

 

[Bibor]

The only times I've had any peace with the AI is when I had very few cities. I think they really, really hate it when you've got more cities than you do. I can kind of see the idea behind this, but it leads to a lot of really strange declarations of war by civs that really have no reason to declare on you.

Human players also tend to cut into larger civs, afraid they'll get too big. Maybe the developers finally implmeneted the "Land is power" maxim.

 

[pi-r8]

Human players also tend to cut into larger civs, afraid they'll get too big. Maybe the developers finally implmeneted the "Land is power" maxim.

If that's what they're going for then they failed.
Why would a civ which is no where near you, and unable to mount a real attack against you, declare war when it could just expand peacefully instead?

 

[eric_]

My current game (King, Continents, standard settings, I'm the Iroquois) has involved a lot of interesting diplomatic ins and outs. Including some defensive pacts (I'm pretty sure the one with Rome prevented me from being eliminated a long time ago). Unfortunately, nothing has helped me end a long war with France, which has been going on for probably 200 turns. Napo's a real jerk!

It's interesting to consider what started it, though. Early on, I warred with Siam, as they were encroaching too much and settled on two sides of my border, which I didn't like. I bribed the Ottomans to join me and the war went well for us both. Soon Siam was reduced to one city, but I started to become stretched too thin, so I ended the war and started to consolidate. Over the next bunch of turns, Sully started to get cocky. Finally, he dispatched a settler to the lands to my south (his empire is to my north), and he gleefully laughed in my face when I told him not to settle near my cities. Next turn, plop goes a city, right on my southern border.

This was too much of an affront to be ignored. I was weaker than him, but only by a little, and so I figured if I played defensively, it would work out well. And, it did. At first he was making headway with his janissaries, but I managed to deploy my longswords and horses wisely and thinned his ranks on my turf. Then, I managed to get Napoleon in on the action (he was along Sully's other border - the continent is an upside down V, me and Siam on the east arm, France on the West arm, and Sully at the pinnacle in the North) and, after I took six of his cities, Sully begged for peace. I was wont to agree, as I was again stretched quite thin. He offered me two cities, one strategically great as it helped me span to the northern shore of the continent. The other was a bit remote and worthless, so I countered with a different city that neighbored the first. Sully agreed, and this left him with his capital and Edirne, providing a nice cushion between me and France.

Well, two turns later, France makes peace with Sully, and he gets Edirne and the city I passed up in the deal. Ruh roh, methinks. Now I directly border the vastly superior French army. Around this time I finally start meeting civs from overseas (all this war kept me focused on the lower tech branches), one of whom is the apparently mega-ultra civ of Rome. We had made a few nice deals, and I thought I'd just ask for a defensive pact to see if he'd bite...and he did! I was greatly relieved, as Napoleon was becoming increasingly belligerent, and Rome was the only other civ (besides France) whose army "could wipe us off the face of the planet."

Unfortunately, This wasn't enough of a deterrent, and France DoW'd a few turns into the defensive pact. Now, France was throwing rifles and freaking artillery at me, and, as I said earlier, I think I would've been overrun, and fast, if it weren't for the defensive pact with Rome. My toughest units at this point were xbows and longswords with some muskets thrown in because they are a fast build.

Anyway, France and I traded control of one of my cities for awhile (me often abandoning it so I had healthy longswords and knights to clean up after the xbows) until I finally managed to beat him back. Then, Rome makes peace with France, and I hole up and set all cities to produce units, expecting the worst. It materializes from the sea, but I have rifles and cannons now, and *one* tririme, and between those, I manage to turn back the naval invasion (he had no naval units protecting his embarked units). With that threat gone, I get bold and take Edirne, then regroup again. All this time I'm repeatedly trying to negotiate for peace, but France flat refuses. I decide I need to lean on him harder, so I take Istanbul and now I'm right on his borders. I take Avignon, just below Istanbul, set it to be razed, and bail, just to make a point, but still, no peace will come!

Now I have infantry and artillery and tanks are on the way, and France, who has given up all pretense of aggressive action, will. not. budge. It's really annoying. I'm pretty psyched that I managed to catch up to him, tech-wise, though, via aggressive pursuit of Rationalism, with the bonus of popping a Great Scientist right as I got the two free techs from Scientific Revolution. Anyway, because of my war with France, Rome has been booming, having just hit Future Era. I’m almost definitely going to lose (it’s the 1950s), but against all odds, I not only exist, but my empire is *massive*, bigger now even than France’s.

The irony here is that I set out to play a more-or-less peaceful game, but circumstances have conspired against that. Or, rather, I suspect that AI civs have conspired against it, just as I twice succeeded in conspiring with them to the detriment of another rival.

The one thing I can’t figure it out is where I went wrong with France. Am I just too much of a threat on the same landmass?

edit: I consider all of this "successful" diplomacy in terms of how it has been implemented in the game, even if it doesn't turn out to be "successful" in helping me win

 

[eric_]

Why would a civ which is no where near you, and unable to mount a real attack against you, declare war when it could just expand peacefully instead?

Maybe it was bribed? Or, maybe because of a defensive pact? Rome and France are nowhere near one another, but Rome was compelled to war with them due to our defensive pact.

 

[neilkaz]

I am seriously starting to wonder what I have to do in this, my first immortal level game, to get at least one AI to declare war on another?

When ever I talk to Darius, he's been a trading partner all game and we've had pacts of cooperation and pacts of secrecies vs others, all he does is complain about Alex or Ghandi, and even though I was at war with both those countries, nothing I could do could get Darius to DOW either of them.

There are 5 of the remaining 6 civs left on this oval map (like Pangaea but with more penisulas and bays (thereby meaning I just couldn't Mongol Horse Rush and wipe the entire map clean quick enough before the AI's on Immortal mostly have tech level and weapons to make horses close to obsolete. But anyhow, from where I stand in this game, if I can get Darius to fight Alex, they'll both be weakened and I will have an easy win. (Harun to by north doesn't have much, and I do need to deal with Ghandi's 2 city cultural victory attempt in the other corner at some point.

Advice on getting civs to DOW another civ on Immortal or Deity please .. neilkaz ..

 

[eric_]

How's his military compared to the others?

 

[neilkaz]

How's his military compared to the others?

Darius has the pointiest stick a few turns ago when rankings were shown and yet still won't DOW Alex and they have had borders in common for much of the game.

 

[eric_]

It's time like that when I wonder if there is more going on with diplomacy than meets the eye.

Maybe Alex has managed to get and maintain a defensive pact with Darius? Or, maybe Darius "understands" what his warring with Alex will do for you?

 

[bryanw1995]

Darius has the pointiest stick a few turns ago when rankings were shown and yet still won't DOW Alex and they have had borders in common for much of the game.

try to sign poc and pos with alex against darius and get him to dow instead. alex is generally much more aggressive so you might have more success with him.

 

[ChevalierdeJstn]

Problem is lack of feedback. Perhaps AI diplomacy really is strategic. I have certainly seen evidence of the AI actually making some good decisions (on the other hand I have seen more evidence of completely stupid AI.) However, there is almost zero feedback to determine how player actions affect AI attitude. We have "will you sign a pact of cooperation"* and "our pact of cooperation no longer works." And...that's it. Some means of assessing AI attitude is going to be key to (i) figuring out how diplomacy works, and (ii) fixing it if it is as broken as most of us think it appears to be.

Those of you posting ideas about how diplomacy works in this game - that's great, and much appreciated, but the fact of the matter is that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I don't mean that to be insulting at all, by the way - I don't mean you're fools as all such posts appear to be Extremely well thought-out. What I mean is, you have literally no idea, because there is no feedback mechanism. You're guessing like the rest of us. You seem to be better guessers and I'm definitely going to try out some of the tips in this thread, but at the end of the day we really, really need a better diplomacy feedback mechanism to move this aspect of the game forward.

[Edit: Huh, and I just listened to the latest Polycast report, one topic of which was the conclusion that AI diplomacy needs some better feedback so that players can figure out how it works. Yup.]

* Has anyone else seen the following: I don't think I have ever had an AI accept my offer of a Pact of Coop. However I frequently have the AI come back the very next turn (IBT in fact) and offer ME a Pact...after refusing my offer. I mean, what the heck? Not really much gameplay impact but more than a little weird.