Suggestion: Unique Victory Conditions / Achivements

Would RoC be more fun if each Civ had a reason to pursue their historical greatness?

  • No. Playing for history is its own reward. Let people choose to recreate history, if they wish.

    Votes: 8 9.1%
  • Yes. We should use SOME kind of reward to encourage each Civ to pursue its historical greatness.

    Votes: 55 62.5%
  • Yes. We should use victory as a reward to encourage each Civ to pursue its historical greatness.

    Votes: 13 14.8%
  • Actually, each Civ should be uniquely powerful, so their historical greatness is nearly inevitable.

    Votes: 10 11.4%
  • Don't care, either way.

    Votes: 2 2.3%

  • Total voters
    88
I think that the bonus should not be points or victories, but gameplay benefits. Perhaps, for example, if you or the AI achieve the Roman Empire in due time you get a commerce income till the advent of the new european powers.
 
Again, I agree with Elhoim.
Revamping victory directly is too complicated and unnecessary. On the other hand, we can try and create realistic incentives to do the historically true (like Subjugation would do for Rome) and then near-realistic bonuses to those who achieve their goals. Sometimes the bonus should be activation of a UP. This way we can give a civ a very-possible goal and a very powerful UP, and make the UP only start once the goal is achieved.
Again, I don't have the time to brainstorm extensively, but I have to stress how much I think actually revamping victory is a bad idea.
 
My own idea is adding an alternative path to victory, not replacing it.

Such as:

Aztecs
No European colonies in Central America in 1600: +2
No European colonies in Central America in 1700: +3
No European colonies in Central America in 1800: +3
No European colonies in Central America in 1900: +3
Enslave 3 Spanish units: +2

This is an example of AI-capable goals (through AIWars and Aztec UP).
If you collect 10 points, you've won.

For other civs goals can have enphasis on wonders or golden ages or resources, conquest (Germany, Mongolia), colonization (Spain), gold (Mali), score (Japan), religion founding (India), religion spread (Arabia), etc. etc.
 
Rhye said:
My own idea is adding an alternative path to victory, not replacing it.

Such as:

Aztecs
No European colonies in Central America in 1600: +2
No European colonies in Central America in 1700: +3
No European colonies in Central America in 1800: +3
No European colonies in Central America in 1900: +3
Enslave 3 Spanish units: +2

This is an example of AI-capable goals (through AIWars and Aztec UP).
If you collect 10 points, you've won.

For other civs goals can have enphasis on wonders or golden ages or resources, conquest (Germany, Mongolia), colonization (Spain), gold (Mali), score (Japan), religion founding (India), religion spread (Arabia), etc. etc.
Thats really very interesting Rhye, I like it. I wonder if you could also do something like give civs an additional bonus once they got 5 points or something like that.
 
This really does remind me of the challenges for Roc/X for Civ3. Mypersonal opinion is that the same kind of scoring system (like Rhye just outlined) should be used, but i ALSO think that a bonus should be activated. For instance:
As the greeks:
conquer alexander's empire before 300BC: X points
exterminate the Persians completely: X points
Exterminate the Egyptians completely: X points
If you do all of this all cities get +10% culture and +2XP per unit...call it the legacy of alexander or something. So basically it is worth it to try to recreate history here, as you will get big bonuses, but that isnt to say that is easy or guaranteed.
 
Sorry to double post, but i have a bunch of ideas for this that im gonna list here:

France: Make Paris the #1 cultural city by 1800.
Conquer Germany by 1800.
Conquer Rome by 1800.
(maybe conquer Spain by 1800?)
If all this happens then you get access to the representation civic as well as a +10% cultural boost in all cities, but you get a -1 diplo hit with all neighboring powers for every city you conquer that dont have a majority french population.

America: No Euro cities in N/America by 1900
Control Alaska by 1850
Have a city on the west coast connected to your capital by 1850
have a railroad that connects your capital to a west coast city by 1900
Control the panama Canal region by 1900 (or so)
If you do all this then you get +2 happiness in all cities, +25% production in all cities, +25% commerce in all cities, +10% GPP in all cities, and +1 trade routes in all cities. This is clearly a hard challenge, but the benefits are considerable.

EDIT: I have many more ideas and i will continue to update this post when i write them.
 
Before we go ahead and start posting specific ideas for every Civ with bonuses included, we should agree on how this is going to be implemented. Will it be an alternate route to victory? Will it provide some nice bonuses? A combination of the two, maybe? Once we're all in agreement about how it's going to be put into the mod, then we can start thinking of specific ideas for goals, including bonuses or how many points it's worth or whatever. I would like for it to be a way to gain bonuses for your Civ, somewhat like King Coltrane posted above (if not exactly that).
 
I really like this idea. It would give each civ a unique objextive, unlike ho wit is now (build, conquor, colonize).
 
again, i think that to end the entire game based on the achievements of one civ that are more or less independent of the rest of the world is wrong... theres nothing wrong with it contributing to victory and even helping the rest of the game with bonuses, but outright victory is too much.
 
McA123 said:
Before we go ahead and start posting specific ideas for every Civ with bonuses included, we should agree on how this is going to be implemented. Will it be an alternate route to victory? Will it provide some nice bonuses? A combination of the two, maybe? Once we're all in agreement about how it's going to be put into the mod, then we can start thinking of specific ideas for goals, including bonuses or how many points it's worth or whatever. I would like for it to be a way to gain bonuses for your Civ, somewhat like King Coltrane posted above (if not exactly that).

I think this is the most important question. Once we have a frame for what each Civ will be measured as, we'll develop unique conditions for everyone.

Aztecs
No European colonies in Central America in 1600: +2
No European colonies in Central America in 1700: +3
No European colonies in Central America in 1800: +3
No European colonies in Central America in 1900: +3
Enslave 3 Spanish units: +2

For example, we could say that each Civ has the chance to earn anywhere between 12 and 15 points, with 10 points guaranteeing victory. (And points awarded for general domination/cultural/diplomatic goals, and the space race.)

This is what I mean by turning a design into a frame, so there is some consistency between the civs.
 
Rhye's idea seems quite well put, an alternative path to victory.
Maybe if everyone compiled a list for a civ we would have some base ideas.
For Babylon, maybe this:
1. Be the first to discover Writing.
2. Conquer Persia and Egypt by 700 BCE.
2. Become the city with the highest culture and science by 600 BCE.
3. Build the Hanging Gardens by 600 BCE.
5. Have Islam as state religion along with Arabia.

But the same question here, will the AI know how to apply them?
 
I really like the bonus idea as well - I think it would really enhance the game - almost like mini-missions to shoot for. Should they be civ-specific or more open ended (like the circumnavigation bonus)?

Some generic bonuses perhaps to shoot for can include:
First to "discover" the new world (North/South America)
First to make contact w/ New World civs
Creating the Suez Canal (founding a city on predesignated location)
Creating the Panama Canal (founding a city on predesignated location)
First to build an ICBM

Whether these bonuses result in points or some sort of unit/civ bonus is another question.
 
I really like the bonus idea as well - I think it would really enhance the game - almost like mini-missions to shoot for. Should they be civ-specific or more open ended (like the circumnavigation bonus)?

That is a great idea! I think there should be both, BTW.
 
At last I have some time (kind of).
I don't like the idea of a civ winning for managing to do what it historically did or wanted to do. Sure, Rome conquered a huge area and did some amazing things, but the reason this matters is mainly because of what it set into motion. What makes the Roman Empire so interesting and important to me is that culturally, the entire world is still affected by the Roman Empire. Languages, which are one of my favorite subjects, are the best way I can demonstrate this. Latin, which spread with Roman control, has left its mark on numerous languages. If I'm not sorely mistaken, some elements of Latin even ended up in modern Russian (possibly through other European languages). Rome's domination in England left its mark there too, of course, and the English language as I know use it still drips with Latin influence. England went on to independence eventually, and later on created the British Empire. Some colonies in North America broke off from the empire, creating the United States. Today, English-speaking culture from the West has penetrated every country on the planet, at least to some degree. Roman influence is still absolutely everywhere.
All that (most of it unnecessary, I know) is to say that when historical civs did some amazing things, they didn't "win". The things they did just went on to change the world. I know in real life nobody "wins" like in-game, but the feats you win by in-game are all rather fantastic - not real historical events.
Because of this (and following other posts in this thread) I propose the following: civs will each be able to gain special points according to both historical achievements and historical aspirations. For each civ, there will be about 20 points possible. When you hit 10 points, which would be very very formidable, you get a special achievement bonus. For my ever-so-beloved-and-overused Rome example, this bonus could be that Roman culture spreads into foreign cities rather steadily and regardless of Roman cultural strength. This spread doesn't go only to cities neighboring Rome, but to cities neighboring any city with Roman culture in it, and the spread continues forever. This would be somehow realistic, but it would be meaningless in the current game because culture spreads too simply and means too little in small amounts. But that's beside the point. Anyhow, we'd have to design the achievement bonuses to be remotely realistic (or somehow resembling reality) and very useful for surviving and prospering.
Then, if you hit a very high number of points, make it 15 or 18, you win. To do this, you'd have to do way, way better than history. Rome would need to hold onto most of its Empire through AD 1000 (in other words, avert the fall of the empire). Germany would have to win the world wars (yeah, I know they don't necessarily exist in-game, we can work this out later). The Inca would have to dominate South America.
Victory by special points would be awarded for doing the unbelievable. For the merely historical, you'd get a special bonus to help you through the rest of the game.
 
We all need to agree on a way to implement this. After some more ideas about it has been put forth, we could hold a poll and see which idea has the most support and go with that. Every proposal so far has been good, we just have to decide which is the best.
 
I like how Blasphemous has put it. The only thing I would add is there should be more than just 1 bonus per civ. I reckon there should be 2 or 3 per civ. If using the point scheme say one at 2 points then 5 then 10 so that it becomes progressively harder.

I also like the idea that there should be some generic ones that all civs aim for.

And to propose something slightly different. You could even have region specific bonuses instead of ones for all civs. Something like Euro civs competing for colonisation or Ancient Med civs aiming to be the first to build 3 of the ancient wonders.
 
UglyBoy said:
And to propose something slightly different. You could even have region specific bonuses instead of ones for all civs. Something like Euro civs competing for colonisation or Ancient Med civs aiming to be the first to build 3 of the ancient wonders.

Good idea! Or maybe some bonuses linked directly to areas for every Civ. Controlling the Mediterranean provides extra trade, for example.
 
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