suggestions for civ 7

No civilization we could recognize existed in 10,000 or even 8,000 BC. Proto-Indo-European wasn't even being spoken yet. Proto-Afroasiatic hadn't yet split into its constituent parts. Even if we start in Neolithic mode, I wouldn't put the start date earlier than about 5,000 BC, 6,000 at the earliest.

Honestly ? I don't know. That posed, there's surely some care to make with the word "civilization" : do you mean cities ? Or states ? Or both at the same time ?

By the way, if the definition of "civilization" is bottom those kinds of lines, let's say we start at 12000 BC and the time we reasearch the tech and/or civic in order to actually start a "civilization" we should hit 4000 BC easily... according to average play, same as current Civs.
 
Honestly ? I don't know. That posed, there's surely some care to make with the word "civilization" : do you mean cities ? Or states ? Or both at the same time ?
I'm not talking about the definition of civilization. I'm saying that no group of people we could put a name to existed in those early dates. I'm not an expert on Egyptian prehistory, but to my knowledge the first evidence of the people who would become the Egyptians is ca. 5,000 BC. At that same time period, it's unclear where the Sumerians were, but it wasn't in Mesopotamia, which was inhabited by the unrelated Ubaid culture at the time. Likewise, Semitic-speaking peoples had not yet made their way to the Levant or Mesopotamia. Proto-Indo-European isn't projected to have been spoken on the Pontic Steppe until about 4,000 BC. So my general point is that the world even 7,000 years ago was completely alien to us--but just beginning to take the shape we'd recognize. To start at 14,000 BP is to start in a world we can barely comprehend.
 
Australia natives are on Earth since 50.000 years so... and they are Homo Sapiens too ! So no, the world, though partially known by everybody, but that's the case in Civ whether you start in 4000 BC or 12000 BC, is fully populated by Homo Sapiens since a much more longer time that you say. That's not because we don't have "names" for them that they weren't there.
 
Australia natives are on Earth since 50.000 years so... and they are Homo Sapiens too !
How is that relevant to the discussion? I never claimed the Earth was unpopulated until 5000 BC. :crazyeye:

So no, the world, though partially known by everybody, but that's the case in Civ whether you start in 4000 BC or 12000 BC, is fully populated by Homo Sapiens since a much more longer time that you say. That's not because we don't have "names" for them that they weren't there.
I'm not arguing that people weren't there. I'm saying that starting the game before even the oldest civilizations in the game existed is better suited for a game like Humankind than it is for Civilization. Even at 5000 BC there's still another thousand years before Egypt and Sumer are attested or the Bronze Age begins, plenty enough time for a Neolithic (or Chalcolithic) "prologue," if you will.
 
How is that relevant to the discussion? I never claimed the Earth was unpopulated until 5000 BC. :crazyeye:

You first said "civilization", then "group of people". Make a choice, or be clearer. Now you're saying "civilizations in the game". But "civilization" (on singular, at least), can just be about civilization or the steps to go there and what's happening after. I see no reason to refuse some change about the starting date of the game.

PS : you have a first civ as a faction to play with since 48.000 BC : Aborigines, and yes, there's a name on them.
 
You first said "civilization", then "group of people". Make a choice, or be clearer. Now you're saying "civilizations in the game". But "civilization" (on singular, at least), can just be about civilization or the steps to go there and what's happening after. I see no reason to refuse some change about the starting date of the game.
I'm clarifying my words because you're clearly not understanding them. My point was that we have no names for any people that existed at the timeframe you're proposing; certainly none of the civilizations in the game existed even 8,000 years ago. At any rate, I think a Neolithic phase before the game begins could be interesting if done better than Humankind's, as I've said elsewhere, but I do think a starting date of 12,000, 10,000, or even 8,000 BC is much too early. Even starting at 5000 BC gives you 1000 years of Neolithic before our current starting date and the beginning of the Bronze Age; that should be more than adequate.

PS : you have a first civ as a faction to play with since 48.000 BC : Aborigines, and yes, there's a name on them.
1) The Aborigines are not a group of people any more than American Indians are a group of people or Europeans are a group of people or Africans are a group of people; they are hundreds of peoples who are no more the same people they were 50,000 years ago than anyone else is. To claim otherwise is the same kind of nationalist romantic rhetoric that gives us "Hungarians are Sumerian," "China has always been here with its exact modern borders and Taiwan doesn't exist," "Native Americans have always been here and never crossed a land bridge from Siberia," and "Saddam Hussein was Nebuchadnezzar II brought to earth again." 2) The Aborigines will never be included because of their belief system. 3) The Aborigines really shouldn't be included as a major civilization anyway because of their lack of urbanization and technological development. Same with the Inuit, Khoisan, and most of the indigenous people of Siberia. Any of them would make an interesting minor civilization, though.
 
Civilization traditionally meant "Cities" and still does to even some Academics (which is why some speak of a distinction between Civilization and Cultural Entity/Group) and, of course, that is what Civilization the game has always emphasized. From as far back as I've played the game (Civ 2) the game has always revolved around the City as the basic and by far the most important feature of the game.

Having been dragged into a few Cultural Anthropology and Cultural Geography courses in college (by friends and my sister who insisted that my intellectual life would not be complete without them - and they were right) I've never been able to accept this premise and always thought it limited the game immensely and unnecessarily.

Specific to this discussion, there were some very wide-spread and well-populated Neolithic groups that, at least, built what I call 'proto-cities' - congregations of population numbering in the hundreds or around a thousand or two, but unable to grow larger because their food sources were too ephemeral: lots of hunting and gathering still, primitive agriculture that could go bust on them at the drop of an environmental/climatological hat and force the abandonment of the settlement completely. Playing with this concept - cities that may or may not survive the next 20 turns, food sources hat come and go at near-random - would be a very hard sell for most gamers.

On the other hand, there were also a great many Neolithic cities: Jericho, Motza, Nevali Cori and Asikh Hoyuk in Anatolia - every one of them established prior to 7000 BCE and holding 2000 - 6000 people, but also requiring very specific advantages to be established: water sources, food sources, defensive advantages - cities did not start at random or easily.

But, by the proposed date of 5000 BCE, here are 'city like' congregations everywhere: Nabta Playa in the Egyptian desert with 5000 people, settlements in the Dadiwan and Peilagang Cultures of China with large ceremonial buildings on prepared, elevated foundations, Seskla in northern Greece with 5000 or more inhabitants, Vinca Culture futher north in the Balkans with several settlements of 4000 or more people, Ugarit which had its own stone walled defenses by 6000 BCE.
And, long before 5000 BCE, many of these groups already had fired, decorated Pottery, domesticated Cattle and Sheep (including the technology to make, store and preserve cheese as a 'secondary product') and by 5000 BCE were already starting to smelt Copper and enter the Chalcolithic Era.

So, 5000 BCE is just Too Late, even though the majority of the human population was semi-nomadic still, too many of them in too many places were already settling down and concentrating population in groups larger than simple hunter-gathering would support.

I suggest that 9000 BCE is a better date, with a very long-scale turn (60 - 100 years?) for the period before about 4000 BCE. 9000 is about the first evidence of domesticated wheat, millet and/or rice in areas as distant as Mesopotamia, Anatolia, Egypt, India, and China and just before the first indications of potato cultivation (8000 BCE) in the Andes, and the domestication of sheep and pigs - with cattle following shortly afterwards (7000 BCE). Pottery, Weaving (plant fibres, no wool until after 4000 BCE), coastal sea travel to islands (Cyprus was settled with domestic pigs and sheep by 8000 BCE) so there is a lot going on this early.

- Far more than Humankind represents in their 'Neolithic Start', which is why I think it belongs in Civ VII, only better done with more of the real complexities, technologies, and varieties of 'survival strategies' being practiced.

The fact that no recognizable "Civilizations" are on the board yet can be an Advantage: this period would be an Establishment Period, in which you start either Cities, or Settlements, or domesticate enough animals to be prepared for a Pastoral Civ - which life-style is not possible for large groups until after about 4500 BCE when you have domesticated cattle and the first domesticated horses to haul your household goods across the plains on travois - wheels come about 1000 years later. All that you do from 9000 to about 4000 BE would be preparing the groundwork for choosing the Civ you are going to play, and taking on a set of characteristics (Uniques) of that Civ - some of which might be established regardless of the Civ by your preliminary actions. For example, there were several archeologically-identified 'cultures' in China pre-4000 BCE that were shore-based and sea-oriented, even if they couldn't venture too far from the shore yet - why not a China with a Naval Unique from 4000 BCE?
 
The fact that no recognizable "Civilizations" are on the board yet can be an Advantage: this period would be an Establishment Period, in which you start either Cities, or Settlements, or domesticate enough animals to be prepared for a Pastoral Civ - which life-style is not possible for large groups until after about 4500 BCE when you have domesticated cattle and the first domesticated horses to haul your household goods across the plains on travois - wheels come about 1000 years later. All that you do from 9000 to about 4000 BE would be preparing the groundwork for choosing the Civ you are going to play, and taking on a set of characteristics (Uniques) of that Civ - some of which might be established regardless of the Civ by your preliminary actions. For example, there were several archeologically-identified 'cultures' in China pre-4000 BCE that were shore-based and sea-oriented, even if they couldn't venture too far from the shore yet - why not a China with a Naval Unique from 4000 BCE?
I suppose I want a more traditional Civ start because TBH I'm leery of how Firaxis would handle it. Civ6 has given me enormous confidence in Firaxis' ideas and extreme caution concerning their execution of those ideas, and I don't want to see Civ turn into HK.
 
And another suggestion I was thinking about for it was a different between cities that you make and other developments that can grow like towns and hamlets. Towns could help increase your production and food in nearby cities but can't actually produce anything themselves. I think this could be an interesting way to play the game and would increase immersion.
 
I suppose I want a more traditional Civ start because TBH I'm leery of how Firaxis would handle it. Civ6 has given me enormous confidence in Firaxis' ideas and extreme caution concerning their execution of those ideas, and I don't want to see Civ turn into HK.

Agree with your fears re Firaxis.
That's why I keep giving them pointers on these Forums as to how they should do it. Figure even when it engages their gag reflex, at least it might give them some new ideas on how to proceed.

We have to remain optimistic
 
I suppose I want a more traditional Civ start because TBH I'm leery of how Firaxis would handle it. Civ6 has given me enormous confidence in Firaxis' ideas and extreme caution concerning their execution of those ideas, and I don't want to see Civ turn into HK.
In the case of the Maori, everyone basically loved the unique implementation so I think the concept could work, at least in the hands of the player. :mischief:

Even if it's not for all civs, I can see it being implemented for others like Mongolia etc.
 
1) The Aborigines are not a group of people any more than American Indians are a group of people or Europeans are a group of people or Africans are a group of people; they are hundreds of peoples who are no more the same people they were 50,000 years ago than anyone else is. To claim otherwise is the same kind of nationalist romantic rhetoric that gives us "Hungarians are Sumerian," "China has always been here with its exact modern borders and Taiwan doesn't exist," "Native Americans have always been here and never crossed a land bridge from Siberia," and "Saddam Hussein was Nebuchadnezzar II brought to earth again."

You still make no sense to me... (especially the romantic thing :rolleyes: ) What is a group of people ? USA is not "a" group of people, it's half spanish, but they are in the game. Europeans might not be "a" group of people, but they could have become a Federal State on the model of the USA. Aborigines do are a civilization, they are named and should be in the game. (would be fun to take them and win the game somehow)
Aside of that, we don't HAVE TO name civs. I know this is popular, but if Firaxis do the things right, I'm sure most players could see the advantages of this. Would be a premiere to the series though.
 
Aborigines do are a civilization, they are named and should be in the game.
An "Aboriginal Australian" civ would be almost as egregious as Civ4's "Native American" civ. There are hundreds of Australian Aboriginal peoples.

Aside of that, we don't HAVE TO name civs. I know this is popular, but if Firaxis do the things right, I'm sure most players could see the advantages of this. Would be a premiere to the series though.
Civilization is a 4X game that's supposed to have historical flavor. While fantasy 4X games can be fun, that's not what Civilization is supposed to be.
 
In the case of the Maori, everyone basically loved the unique implementation so I think the concept could work, at least in the hands of the player. :mischief:

Even if it's not for all civs, I can see it being implemented for others like Mongolia etc.

When I first saw the Maori "Sea-Going Nomadic Start" I was ecstatic, because I hoped that it would be a pattern for a land-based method of depicting the Pastoral "Civs" like the Scythians, Huns, Mongols, Lakota, etc.

Didn't happen in the rump of Civ VI that followed the Maori, but I still think it is a potential template for such Civs, and I hope they revisit it when designing them for Civ VII.
 
An "Aboriginal Australian" civ would be almost as egregious as Civ4's "Native American" civ. There are hundreds of Australian Aboriginal peoples.

OK, so then you think that USA or Poland have not the same number of groups ? How cute.

Civilization is a 4X game that's supposed to have historical flavor. While fantasy 4X games can be fun, that's not what Civilization is supposed to be.

It can have historical flavor without naming civs, or with naming all of them.
 

Well, in France we have among the most known the Bretons, the Corses and the Basques, but nearly each department have its dialect (or several) which is about 100 hundred indeed, not counting DOM-TOMS. It's your conception of "a" group of people which is romantic.
 
You still make no sense to me... (especially the romantic thing :rolleyes: ) What is a group of people ? USA is not "a" group of people, it's half spanish, but they are in the game. Europeans might not be "a" group of people, but they could have become a Federal State on the model of the USA. Aborigines do are a civilization, they are named and should be in the game. (would be fun to take them and win the game somehow)
Aside of that, we don't HAVE TO name civs. I know this is popular, but if Firaxis do the things right, I'm sure most players could see the advantages of this. Would be a premiere to the series though.
I think you meant Hispanic, not Spanish. :)
What most of us means is if an Aboriginal group got in the game they could use a specific group of them, like the calling the civ Noongar. I don't know much about the Aboriginals and only know of them because they were leaked to be in the game. Now whether they or another Aboriginal group got in is a whole different scenario. :shifty:

Calling the civ "Aboriginals" is the same as calling civs either Native Americans, Celts, or Polynesia, which we've already gone past the blob civs in this game and instead are diving into more specific groups of those cultures.

When I first saw the Maori "Sea-Going Nomadic Start" I was ecstatic, because I hoped that it would be a pattern for a land-based method of depicting the Pastoral "Civs" like the Scythians, Huns, Mongols, Lakota, etc.

Didn't happen in the rump of Civ VI that followed the Maori, but I still think it is a potential template for such Civs, and I hope they revisit it when designing them for Civ VII.
I'm not surprised considering nomadic civs were already released before the Maori. I think it was test run for the future.
 
Calling the civ "Aboriginals" is the same as calling civs either Native Americans, Celts, or Polynesia, which we've already gone past the blob civs in this game and instead are diving into more specific groups of those cultures.

You know what ? I don't care those steeple quarrels. Your most iconic example would be "native americans", but even there, that's just because some of them were specifically named in Westerns movies. I'm not shocked by celts or even less by Polynesia. They are all "civilizations", which we could defined as "a more or less wide group of people".
 
It's your conception of "a" group of people which is romantic.
Since the rolling eyes were not communicative enough, I am withdrawing from this conversation. I have time neither for your ignorance nor your arrogance.
 
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