Suggestions: spell system!

Turd

Chieftain
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Dec 21, 2008
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Hello,

Since we don't yet have all of the mana types implemented in the game, I wanted to make some suggestions about the 3 future spheres/random thoughts on the current ones!
I also have some other random thoughts near the end...


Force
I: :
II: Force push: somewhat akin to the old Air II sorcery spell that pushed enemies back away from the caster. I would reintroduce it identically and change only the icon
III: Ward: I really like Fall Further's Force III spell, need I say more? :crazyeye:


Creation
I: Rainstorm: Creates an improvement called a "rainstorm" in the caster's tile, which over time, has the possibility of upgrading into:
a) Mushrooms, 5% of the time
b) a Blizzard, 5% of the time :eek:
c) A water tile, 1% of the time :lol: Ok, this was for fun
d) Something that gives +1 food, 29% of the time
e) Dissipating, 60% of the time
It's supposed to work somewhat like a reverse-Blaze mechanic, where the smoke either becomes flames or goes away. It also would be cool if there was a chance to destroy roads in the tile (to represent flooding)
II:
III: Create: creates a permanent, amorphous blob that, with the sufficient mana type and funds, can be upgraded into any elemental. Takes 10 turns to cast

Dimensional
I: Escape: as it was in .30
II: Summon dimensional pocket: creates an immobile unit with, say, 5 cargo slots, that has an obscenely large teleporting range
III: Agare's portal: requires either Ashen Veil or Entropy III. This creates an improvement of the same name that spawns random (as in orcs, demons, undead, elves, whatever) barbarian units until a unit with Sanctify comes by and destroys it. Merely occupying the square of the improvement does not destroy it
III: Planetary portal: creates a building like the Sheaïm planetary portal! It would NOT require the caster to stay put, but instead have a small (like 4% small), random chance of creating 2-4 units per turn, and once one batch of units was created, it would disappear


Please excuse the blanks above, I'm a bit short of ideas



Also, I have some random suggestions about the DISEASE system in the game

The main issue I have with the disease system as currently implemented is that it is far too easy to avoid. All that is required is a state religion & the Priesthood technology, and voila! the disease disappears. I feel as if this detracts from the coolness factor surrounding the Pool of Tears, Aquae Sucellus, the Wither (entropy III) spell, and the entire deathly power of the regular diseased promotions themselves.
Plus, it tends to be the case where the diseases never really come up. I haven't seen Typhoid Mary in any of my games since .30. As for Yersina and the diseased corpses, they tend to only spread their respective promotions when their opponents survive and they die, which means, without Typhoid Mary's Contagion spell, plague never really comes up in the game, and a single priest takes care of the issue for when there are diseased corpses outside the gates


So, to change that

From the Scions module, there is a promotion available to undead units (I'm blanking on its name) that causes 0.5 unhealthy points in nearby cities. I would tack this effect on Diseased, Plagued, Plague Carrier, Yerisina's dagger, and Wither, for realism's sake. After all, when there's tons of diseased corpses surrounding a walled city during a siege, the city inevitably will have to draw on water outside its limits, thus contracting disease

I would also like to see a new method of spreading and curing disease. I remember from 030 that not all priests had the ability to heal. Turd likes that! :crazyeye: So, let the Fellowship keep that ability. Also, for fun, let's give the Ashen Veil some benefit from disease, maybe a form of the Mutation spell that boosts diseased units, in exchange for forcing them to keep the diseased promotion and risking that they may die at any given point

For the other religions, it should be more difficult. I would love to tie it to inherent sanitation though. So, the city with Aquae Sucellus instantly cures all diseases and is immune to disease as well. From there, and I don't know of this is possible, units with diseases on them should have to go sit in a city, and cast a spell that takes, say, 2 or 3 turns to cast. Once that's done, the python can check the severity of the disease (disease<withered<plagued) against the net health of the city (along with the presence of infirmaries, herbalists, aqueducts, and food bonuses), rolls a dice, and chooses whether or not the unit is healed

As for the spread of disease: I'd say any unit in the same square as a diseased unit can pick up the disease. The chances should be smallish, much smaller for plagued, and zero for withered. Also, any unit camping out in a net-unhealthy city should also have a chance to contract disease based on the number of net unhealthy points


Also, if it wouldn't be terribly difficult, I would love to take the plague mechanism from Rheye's scenario and put it into FFH, to add a greater degree of realism to the whole event (again can't remember the name) at armageddon 30. So thus, instead of all cities being royally screwed simultaneously and destroying production and commerce without any way to address it, I would rather see it select a random city and then spread from there, granting the diseased promotion to around 33% of units in affected cities, with the chance that the promotion could spread to other units.
Thus, if you see, say, the Calabim being decimated by plague, you could force-build a bunch of health buildings, trade for health resources, and cut off all contact with the outside world (Ø open borders, mercantilism for less trade routes, etc.)
NOTE: I definitely don't want units to die from disease, as was the case with Rheye's mod. However, I liked the associated realism that accompanied its spread, and would make the AC 30 event more interesting and preventable




So what say you on these ideas? Sorry for that massive block of character text.
And :hatsoff: for the amazingness that is this mod!
 
III: Create: creates a permanent, amorphous blob that, with the sufficient mana type and funds, can be upgraded into any elemental. Takes 10 turns to cast

With Fire III I get a fire elemental without having to wait for ten turns or being in need of any more resources. Same goes for Earth III, Shadow III, all Death Spells. Why would I want that one?
 
With Fire III I get a fire elemental without having to wait for ten turns or being in need of any more resources. Same goes for Earth III, Shadow III, all Death Spells. Why would I want that one?

Primarily because it's more versatile. Thus you could have all of your archimages have more other spheres.
And the summons are also permanent.
But it's just me trying to think of ideas, which by definition won't all be that good :lol:


I also like the idea of having Typhoid Mary be buildable, or at least have some ability to have active control over bringing her into play. It would be cool to see her be a new Baron Duin, in terms of being a vicious slaughtering machine of death with the right strategry
 
it would be awesome to have Mary Morbius show up in each game. trying to find out ways to limit the spread of plague is tons of fun and would add something to late game gameplay imho.
 
Lots of good suggestions have been made for all these spells. Figured I would throw mine into the lot/cast my vote for other people's ideas without remembering who initially suggested them, i.e. none of these are original or mine.

Creation:

1. Janitor (for lack of a better term) Creates +1 or +2 health in a city w/ caster present.

2. I like the rainstorm idea for level 2

3. Make this one vitalize (Nature III) and make Nature III summon the guardian vines.

Force:

1. Push: Percentage chance to push unit (friend or foe) back one tile.

2. Immovable Object: Instant fortification bonus to all units in the same tile.

3. Big Shove (Yeah, I'm not a spell-namer): High percentage chance to push multiple units back two tiles.

Dimension

1. Escape

2. Some kind of teleport spell for one unit would be great.

3. Banish: High chance to make a unit in selected adjacent tile disappear. Failure results in lost spell ability.
 
If we push Vitalize out from Nature and into something else, that will nerf Druids quite a bit... or would that be a good thing? Perhaps Creation III could create an organic resource (anything but mana or minerals) in two square near the caster, but also remove the promotion from the caster?

Also: Are these sphere's being put into the game sometime? I thought they'd have turned up by now if they were going to...
 
3. Make this one vitalize (Nature III) and make Nature III summon the guardian vines.

I'd forgotten about guardian vines. I miss those. And to not make this post completely worthless; Dimensional 2 or 3 could create an Obsidian Gate where the caster is (even out in the field).
 
I really think that Vitalize would be much better as a Level 2 spell instead of a Level 3 spell, at least if it gains a delay like Bloom has.

Guardian Vines really needs to come back. They were one of the most unique and useful summons. The unit was actually reintroduced in Ice, for use in scenarios. I personally think that giving it some poison strength (probably reducing their base strength to compensate) would be appropriate (their pedia entry mentions they are poisonous) as would changing the Entange spell from being Druid Specific to being Guardian Vines specific. I'd also give it Woodsman 1-2, Elemental, and Vulnerable to Fire like Treants have.

Guardian Vines is a much better than Vitalize imho. I find plains are usually more useful than grasslands, and so consider spring to be just about as useful.



It would not be possible to create a building like an Obsidian Gate out in the field. You could however create a Portal like those used in The Cult which could allow an unlimited number of units to travel from one end to another. I've tried this, and it works pretty nicely. In my current version you can only create a gate from the caster's tile to the capital city, as targeting spells hasn't really been possible in a long time. I'm thinking that when FF is updated to 0.40 I may see about changing the spell to instead summon a unit with an infinite para dropping range that could go straight to any revealed pot not under enemy control and then create a portal with one end at its location and another at its summoner's. Of course, if I'm using such a summon anyway it might just be better to just make the unit carry units as cargo instead of having it create portals.

The way portals work each tile can store an exit location, regardless of improvements. If not set, a tile links to tile (0,0), the lower left corner of the screen. If you place a portal in worldbuilder it will let units cast enter portal to go to (0,0) with no problems. The portal improvement itself is mostly for show, but is is a prerequisite for the enter portal spell. The way I wrote portals they are 2 way, but you could easily have 1 way portals instead. One of the first times I tested it I had cast in a distant city to link it to my capital, and then lost that city to the infernals. I was afraid that the infernals might use the portal to go directly into my capital and take it without combat, but in the process of capturing the city the improvement on that end had been destroyed, dispite being a permanent improvement. The other end was still open though, so I could still send units back and take the city. I'm thinking it may be appropriate to make the Portal improvement have an onMove python call that closes both ends if an enemy enters the tile. (This would of course mean not using the same improvement as the scenario. Personally I find it a bit too much micromanagement in that scenario, and think that improvement should be changed to transport units automatically via its own onMove call. Plus, it would fit better to just have it look like a doorway to a tunnel under the mountain rather than a dimensional portal, imho.) The ability to take a city just by finding a portal to it is probably too much.





I personally still think that Banish should be a Law spell, and only work on Demons or maybe some other evil units.
 
If we push Vitalize out from Nature and into something else, that will nerf Druids quite a bit... or would that be a good thing? Perhaps Creation III could create an organic resource (anything but mana or minerals) in two square near the caster, but also remove the promotion from the caster?

Also: Are these sphere's being put into the game sometime? I thought they'd have turned up by now if they were going to...

Druids could have the option of learning creation or nature mana. Also, magister's idea of vitalize becoming a nature II spell is probably better than poison blade. I'd like to see poison blades become the result of a resource and a tech, like reagents and poisons. Or maybe a special, new resource to keep poison blades unique. A nightshade resource would be cool. Or maybe neon tree frogs.
 
Actually, I was thinking of it more as a Creation II spell. It just seems to fit better thematically. Nature is about encouraging existing life to grow and mature, and this spell seem to be to be more about causing an area to become very fertile and burst forth with new life.

(I'd also considered making Vitalize a Creation III spell that didn't change terrain at all, but used python to directly increase the tile's food yields. It would probably need some some major drawback though to prevent you from continuing to use it to make a single tile have enough yields to support a city of hundreds though.)


I'm thinking that in my version I'll probably allow Druids to learn Creation, Nature, and Life spells, but they will need access to the appropriate mana just like arcane units do.



I agree that Poison Blade kinda sucks. I vaguely remember coming up with something really good for Nature II, but I don't remember what it was. I guess I'll just leave Vitalize there until I come up with something better, and leave Creation unimplemented for a while since my ideas there aren't that impressive.


Mentioning having Poison Blades require new resources reminded me of this quote from Into the Desert: "Can you do so before I get in a single hit?" Flauros laughed, drawing his own blade, but Decius continued, "Because the Council's assassins have shown me a few things. Such as a rare desert plant, the extracts of which can cause a man pain like he's never known for as long as he lives.

I'm thinking adding that plant could be pretty cool, and could make desert terrain more valuable. Sticking with just reagents would probably be just as logical and easier though, plus we don't even know the name of said plant.

If this was FF, I'd say the Poison Blade promotion should be one you could gain for free in a city with an Herbalist if you have both the Poisons tech and the Reagents resource.
 
Creation III sounds cool, but Creation III would also make sense if it was a pseudo terraforming spell, like MC mentioned, but with more interesting effects.
 
What about making force a one-spell-sphere?

The spell would be push. It would be a direct damage spell dealing little damage, but pushing units around. On level one, these would be tier one and two (axeman, warriors,...), on level two tier three (champions,...) and on level three national units.

For balance reasons the push-effect would be resistable.

For passive effects force could increase your city defence, or force-promotions could increase resistance to (un)holy damage (dagda is the god of balance after all).
 
I remember reading somewhere that Force is opposed to Dimensional magic in some sense, so maybe a spell or two could work against summons, which Dimensional specializes in. Maybe it could give a resistable promotion to enemies that either causes a certain percentage of their summon spells to fail, or make their summons weaker (- or -1 strength?). The debuff could wear off after a turn then. It certainly might help against Keelyn, Os Gabella and Tebryn.
 
Well, force is the Imutable Laws of the Universe (AKA, A wall of Force means you just arn't ment to be able to pass), while Dimmensioal is about linking things together stuff like that.
 
It's entirely possible that creation and force are subsumed by nature and earth. I'd like to see more spell spheres enter the game, specialize nature and earth to provide more combat or summon benefits, and see the full realization of the dimension sphere, since the dimensional aspect of ffh is limited to the sheaim.

And yeah, this is mostly a thread bump post.
 
I: Rainstorm: Creates an improvement called a "rainstorm" in the caster's tile, which over time, has the possibility of upgrading into:
a) Mushrooms, 5% of the time
b) a Blizzard, 5% of the time
c) A water tile, 1% of the time Ok, this was for fun
d) Something that gives +1 food, 29% of the time
e) Dissipating, 60% of the time
It's supposed to work somewhat like a reverse-Blaze mechanic, where the smoke either becomes flames or goes away. It also would be cool if there was a chance to destroy roads in the tile (to represent flooding)

this seems quite a bit too powerful. I'm guessing you're thinking that the lower chances of mushroom or food coming what's to stop someone from just spamming it until they have mushrooms everywhere as soon as they've researched Knowledge of the Ether? I sort of like the idea though, maybe if certain tiles could get a food output boost only while the caster is on them, sort of like Inspiration.
 
I still think that Force 1 should be Magic Missile, which would provide Adepts a minor direct damage spell at level 1. As is, Adepts only are support troops, and I think it would be cool for them to be able to do direct damage, albeit very little. FFH is, after all, based on a D&D campaign.
 
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